Taxe Fonciere problems

[Cottage Garden]

We sold our house in France in February 2011 returning to England.   In April we thought we'd paid the last of the bills so we closed our bank account and transferred the money to English banks.   Unfortunately we forgot about the Taxe Fonciere at the end of the year and received a bill in October.

Friends still have a house and bank account in France so very kindly wrote a cheque for the taxe fonciere amount and I duly sent it off with a note to the tax office not to take the money out of our French account as it was now closed but here was a cheque to cover the bill.   Sure enough they cashed the cheque but also took money out of our non existant account.   They wrote telling us we hadn't paid so I wrote back explaining everything, they then tried to pay the money back into our non existant account which obviously didn't work.   For some strange reason they sent us a cheque for the amount of tax to be paid.   I wrote explaining all of the details and said we wouldn't be cashing the cheque as we didn't have a French bank account anymore and could they please write to say that everything was now closed.

We heard nothing for a while but then had a tax demand for the amount plus interest which arrived in May.   We sent it all back with a covering letter, explaining the situation and that we had paid last year, to the department that looks into these disputes.   We haven't heard a thing from them but have now received a demand that states it has been put into third party hands.   We assume that it will be some form of debt collection or the bailiffs who will try to force the money out of us again.

Has anyone had any experience of this kind of problem and if so what can be done about it?   The tax office just don't acknowledge our letters and short of returning to France and trying to sort it out we don't think it will ever go away.  It will probably cost us more for a visit than we 'owe' anyway.   Do the bailiffs have any juristiction this side of the channel?

Any thoughts on this gratefully received as my husband is really worried about it and can't sleep.

Regards

Cottage Garden

[NormanH]

If all else fails this service exists

http://www.mediateur-republique.fr/connaitre-son-action/la-mediation-avec-les-services-publics

but Clair might have a better idea if she isn't too busy with visitors.

[Aly]

I would return to France and sort it face to face or get a lawyer accountant to deal with it. The alternative is months of correspondence and chasing

and stress.

[ericd]

[quote user="Aly"]I would return to France and sort it face to face or get a lawyer accountant to deal with it. The alternative is months of correspondence and chasing
and stress.
[/quote]

If you have nothing left in France and are convinced you owe nothing to the Republic, then ignore them. Keep all your letters and proof of payment. They will soon get tired of getting no reply from you.

[Aly]

Eric your probably right, but not everyone is able to respond in that way without worrying about it.. These authorities can also fine you and somthing minor then becomes an even bigger issue. Try the mediateur. in the first instance perhaps that might help, you may get someone who is helpful. As for me l am afraid I have little confidence in french bureacracy.

[Rabbie]

As the OP has now returned to England, any action by french bureaucrats to recover the money (which in fact has been paid) would have to be taken in the english courts. This should give the OP a better chance of showing they have fulfilled all their obligations

[Gardengirl]

It sounds complicated at this stage. However, if your French is up to

it, I'd suggest compiling a succinct list of dates/events and phoning

your local tax office. We had a problem, although not as complicated as

yours, and when I phoned our local tax office from UK, I spoke to

someone who was very helpful, who sorted things out. It's worth a try.

Otherwise, I'd second taking a short trip back to France with a full dossier to sort it out

in person; I couldn't let it continue and wouldn't want to risk the courts.

Good luck!

[Russethouse]

Can the Op just not supply the cheque number and the date the cheque was cashed ( debited from the account)

Send it registered mail and refer to that ever after.

[Frederick]

I have been on the recieving end of French stupidity when it comes to this sort of thing and threatened with courts  . After shutting down an account with Orange having  had the phone disconnected  taking the live box back to the Orange shop getting a reciept for it and having their staff state according to their shop computer my  account was closed . They later  managed to do an automatic restart for another year long contract  for broadband for a house with no phone  line connection  That was followed up with putting the matter in the hands of debt collectors when the  stopped direct debit mandate payments  did not kick in for them

 A recorded delivery letter to the debt collectors pointing out the account was closed and sending copies of the paperwork ended it .... No thanks to Orange of course  They had washed their hands of it didnt want to know .... deal with the debt collectors was their position. Which is what you appear to be getting from the tax people .It was  the fact that the debt collecting  agency could see no money in it for them that finished it ...

My next door neighbour thought it was a joke and he said he would have thrown debt collectors  papers in the bin ...  If I was expected to go back to France to sort out a bill I could proove I had paid then  would expect them to pay my fare and hotel expenses  ... In fact I would not go ... Tell them you have the papers to show you have paid them There is nothing outstanding and your door is open to any UK agent they wish to send round to view them ..The debt collecting agencies employ agents in other countries to act for them .

 This sort of thing happens all the time in  France . I would not lose one minutes sleep over it . Just put it down to experience and laugh it off they will not come after you  They will look mighty stupid if they do because you owe them nothing .  

[mint]

[quote user="Aly"]Eric your probably right, but not everyone is able to respond in that way without worrying about it.. These authorities can also fine you and somthing minor then becomes an even bigger issue. Try the mediateur. in the first instance perhaps that might help, you may get someone who is helpful. As for me l am afraid I have little confidence in french bureacracy.

[/quote]

Just to balance things out a bit, I have NO confidence in British bureaucracy.

I'm not going into a long story here because it will be of no help to the poor poster.

Suffice it to say that the British taxman has chased me for money I don't owe and sends me a letter every month to say I am late with filling in my tax return.  This is despite the fact that it was I who supplied them with my new address at the same time as writing to them that I have not been fiscally resident in the UK since 2007 , that I have no property or financial earnings from UK (not even bank interest these days) and that they know and have agreed since 2007 that I pay tax in France and not the UK.

Had I not notified them of my address change, I dare say they would still be sending threatening letters to my house in the Charente.

So, only yesterday, I got a letter from them saying that I now owe over £600 (or whatever it was) on account of late filling in of a tax form.

Why always say the French this and the French that in a negative way?  Do you think the Inland Revenue is any more efficient?  By all means, say you dislike all officialdom if you wish but do exercise a bit of balance in your generalisations. 

[Russethouse]

Let's face it, there is a fair amount of UK bashing here too but this sort of official C*** up is equally annoying where ever you are.

About April each year I'm told I'm late with paying tax for my employees - we don't have employees. Each year I phone and the poor bod that answers the phone makes a note and the next year we do it all over again......

[PaulT]

Cannot remember exactly how to do this but by logging on to the La Poste site you can send a French registered letter - you type it in, they print it off and deliver it registered..

Do not know if the French do it but in the UK some companies sell their bad debts to the debt collectors hence they are no longer interested and it is now the debt collectors who are trying to collect their money.

Paul

[idun]

Sweet17, the problem in France is them reopening bank accounts and putting them into debit. And then if this debt is not paid off, can report people to the Banque de France, which can get very very messy for anyone living in France.

As you can still vote in the UK? I would get all this stuff from the Tax man together, send your MP copies and ask how any department can be so inefficient and waste time and money in such a fashion in this day and age.

I would send a copy of the letter to the MP along with the file copies to my former local tax office, just as a copy.

 

Then they may sort your account out.

 

For all it can go wrong in the UK, I personally feel more at ease trying to sort things out in the UK.

 

To the OP, I've sent you an email.

[mint]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Let's face it, there is a fair amount of UK bashing here too but this sort of official C*** up is equally annoying where ever you are. About April each year I'm told I'm late with paying tax for my employees - we don't have employees. Each year I phone and the poor bod that answers the phone makes a note and the next year we do it all over again......[/quote]

You're quite right of course, RH.

Not only is it merely annoying (although it is clearly that) but, as we have heard from the OP, it can be very worrying and, even worse, cost you a lot of money to put right.

But please note that I was not "UK bashing"; in fact, I would not have even mentioned my experience of the IR but I wanted to make the point that   inefficiency could be found everywhere and that bureaucracy could be frightening as frustrating.  I was not even defending the "French system" as such.

What I do dislike, however, are generalisations that are based on limited experience and which are voiced as though they are evident truths.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Russethouse"] About April each year I'm told I'm late with paying tax for my employees - we don't have employees. Each year I phone and the poor bod that answers the phone makes a note and the next year we do it all over again......[/quote]I had a a similar problem with HMRC after we stopped employing people. A quick phone call to HMRC gave a link so I could make a null return which resolved the issue. IMO HMRC are usually very helpful if you contact them

[Russethouse]

Our accountant has done that very thing a couple of times Rabbie.

Sweet, I didn't think you were UK bashing, but in any case it's all part of forum life......

[mint]

Thank you, RH, I could never bash the UK; I love it too much.

In France, I love the little corner of it where I now live.  I am very proud of our village and I am extremely attached to our house but I have not yet developed that emotional tie with France that I have with the UK (well, England, to be precise).  Don't know whether, given time, I will develop that special bond, but it's exciting and interesting to "wait and see".

[idun]

Surely a problem is the evidence of truth.

I have had very odd things happen to us with BT in the UK, a debacle is an understatement. I have had worse still with Tiscali and Alice.

And when I have discussed 'our' problems with friends, especially in France, then it all comes out, all the stories, and I wonder why they haven't mentioned them before. I can only think that people who have usually done nothing wrong, imagine that they must have done something to bring this on themselves. And even if they done something a little stupid, ie forgetting to pay a bill and often they have not done anything, then the series of events that follow are quite unjustifiably severe and unreasonable and worrying.

We are human, we may forget to pay bills, or pay the wrong amount, but there are ways of sorting stuff out, properly and efficiently without leaving anyone in distress. All it should it take is a company or government dept with a proper accounting system and fully trained staff who can do sums and have some common sense. It isn't rocket science.  There is no excuse for any company or government dept in any country to not have decent systems or to have staff incapable of doing their jobs.

[Russethouse]

Don't mention BT. I have a terrible time with them last year when it looked as if my modem had gone down. They absolutely insisted that I didn't have WiFi, in fact they wouldn't even acknowledge I had a line!

In the event I sent the modem to be tested, the guy found it worked perfectly in the workshop, bought it back and although my PC worked, the wireless facility has gone......

Trying to communicate with people who did not have English as a first language and who were obviously sticking to a script was extremely frustrating to say the least.

[idun]

It was a relief to leave them and swopped to the PhoneCoop, been with them for 18 months now and great. No cheap deals to start with, but I didn't mind that. Clear billing and no problems at all.

[Aly]

Sweet, I was discussing the French system not he Brutish or the German or the Spanish. True the British system has many faults but the French system and officialdom is vast and very difficult to challenge. The complaints procedures are ineffective, management and supervision is poor because the workforce are heavily unionised and introducing change or good practice is very difficult. Everything here needs to be done by registered post be it in the private sector or public. This is  because staff dealing with complaints are not trusted and post goes missing.We were even told at the Post office that some agencies will say that the envelopes were empty when delivered and we should create an envelope from the letter if we want to be certain of a response. My solicitor wrote a letter to the tax office in Bercy it took 18 months for a reply. It is common practice for French agencies to wrongly date correspondence so it appears that they responded  within proper time frames

Fines are severe even when the mistake is not yours. Contracts are biased towards the provider and not the customer and customer service is poor and expensive, especially when they charge you to call for a fault that is not your doing. French bureaucracies inefficiency is well known around the world but especially amongst the French. And yes there are many things I love about France but criticism is also about wanting change and improvement.

[NormanH]

Many of your points are easy to recognise and agree with  Aly, but to add a little positive I have found individuals on occasion in the system who are masters of finding their way through the maze, and enjoying helping.

Of course this shouldn’t be necessary.

I actually find the semi-private bodies such as France Telecom or Lyonnaise des Eaux worse than the 100% fonctionnaires , perhaps because there  is the same lack of personal responsibility on the part of staff, combined with the pressure of the profit motive.

In all these services staff are protected  by the law against 'outrage'

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000504704&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006366501&dateTexte=&categorieLien=cid

which helps their feeling of impunibility

[ericd]

.......As I said......Ignore them, keep calm and carry-on.........

If you absolutely want to communicate with them, make many copies of your reply letter and send them that same reply EVERYTIME they write to you. They "should" get the idea and you will feel better in the knowledge that you are answering each of their demands....

Glorious day in Paris today.....

[mint]

That is very good advice, Eric.

Aly, I am sure you are right in many of the things you have described.  Except on one single occasion (when I had to deal with FT), I have managed mostly (whether through sheer luck or persistence) got the results I have needed.

I even bearded the dreaded Dragon Lady (known to everybody in those parts) in her own den in the impôts office!

For bureaucracy, the French one is by no means the worst I have come across.  Best not name the country which I found the absolute worst and most frightening....for all I know they still have spies out there looking for me! 

[NormanH]

There is a service in each départment to deal with this, the 'concilateur fiscal'

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/popup?espId=1&typePage=cpr02&docOid=documentstandard_1224&temNvlPopUp=true