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Am I dreaming?


Chancer

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Anyone else watch the President's interview with Claire Chazal on TF1 tonight?


Did I really hear our president announce that there will be an additional 10 billion €uros of taxes on enterprises, 10 billion €uros of taxes on households, taxes increased to 45% on investment and rental income and that we should be happy to have the opportunity to be patriotic in paying these charges? [:-))]


No point in becoming a fiscal resident of Belgium either they have put the block on that too [:(]

 

Still on the positive side 15000 Roms will get nic(er) new logements [:P]


 

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I watched A2 Journal de 20h tonight and not a mention of all that. Arnault...... to be or not to be...... belgian........ even the belgians don't understand! The fire in St Denis, dyslexia with some mad orthophiste...... I could have slapped for being STUPID!

Shortly after Mitterand got in, he demanded a  payment from everyone. A loan to the state of France which would be repaid at some time in the future. And it was. Maybe better if they did that again, rather than just tax people and businesses and it be lost in the system.

 

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[quote user="Chancer"]Did I really hear our president announce that there will be an additional 10 billion €uros of taxes on enterprises, 10 billion €uros of taxes on households, taxes increased to 45% on investment and rental income and that we should be happy to have the opportunity to be patriotic in paying these charges? [:-))][/quote]

Well, according to le Figaro (Thank you very much for the link, NH), the details of the measures he announced insofar as they affect mere mortals - I ignore the 75% tax on income higher than 1 million € - were:

[quote]Gel du barème de l'impôt sur le revenu

Le

président a annoncé que pour les revenus de 2012, imposés en 2013, le

barème de l'impôt sur le revenu ne serait pas indexé sur l'inflation. Ce

qui équivaut à une hausse de 2 % de l'imposition globale. Mais les

ménages situés dans les deux premières tranches bénéficieront d'une

décote, qui atténuera l'effet de la désindexation.

Nouvelle tranche à 45 %

Une

tranche d'imposition supplémentaire de 45 % sera créée pour les revenus

dépassant, par part, 150.000 euros par an. Selon nos informations,

cette tranche intégrerait la surtaxe Fillon de 3 % ou 4 % sur les hauts

revenus.

Alignement de la fiscalité du capital et du travail

François

Hollande a rappelé sa volonté d'aligner la fiscalité du capital sur

celle du travail. Jusqu'à présent, les dividendes peuvent être taxés,

grâce au prélèvement forfaitaire, à 21 % et les intérêts à 24 %. Les

plus-values immobilières et de cession de titres le sont à 19 %. Avec

l'alignement, dividendes, intérêts et plus-values seront taxés au barème

de l'IR, donc à 5,5 %, 14 %, 30 %, 41 % ou 45 %, selon les revenus des

foyers. Les contribuables des trois tranches supérieures seront

perdants.[/quote]

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[quote user="Pickles"]Le

président a annoncé que pour les revenus de 2012, imposés en 2013, le

barème de l'impôt sur le revenu ne serait pas indexé sur l'inflation. Mais les

ménages situés dans les deux premières tranches bénéficieront d'une

décote, qui atténuera l'effet de la désindexation.
[/quote]

Thank goodness for small mercies ...

As an aside, being an optomist, I did hope that Hollande would renounce the 'bling' plane that Sarkozy had commissioned as H does not like rich people, and planes surely belong only to rich people. Thereby saving the country a small fortune. But I was told that I had the wrong view (far too naive) and that the trappings of power have nothing to do with personal wealth and, therefore, do not count.

Sue

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Replying to Sue and the question of the presidential aircraft:

1. It was paid for from the proceeds of the sale of two older aircraft, and justified in the interests of (increased) security which involves major public figures.

2. The much publicised train ride by President Hollande was analysed at the time by a security expert who pointed out that it presented a logistical and security nightmare which costs more than a similar journey by presidential aricraft. Among the issues causing concern (and adding to the cost of two first class TGV tickets!) are the known timetable and route of the train, necessitating increased security at every staion en route; police, hospital and army put on alert at every stage of the journey in case of an accident, illness or accident involving a passenger, or a terrorist attempt; surveillance by helicopter the length of the route, which is checked in advance; presidential cars and police escorts on standby in case of any emergency requring evacuation of the president and staff from the train at any point.

Things are not always as simple as they seem - or as claimed by politcians.

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[quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote]

We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said.

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[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote]

We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said.

[/quote]

Well if he does that he will seriously harm the housing market. that coupled with the predicted high inflation from the ECB buying of bonds will make life very uncomfortable for many. God knows what he is planning to do to enterprise in his efforts to raise another 10billion..Without growth these actions are all meaningless in the LT

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Opinion polls in the French press suggest that the public are not convinced - up to 89% seem to think he has got it wrong. Which remains to be seen. He has given himself little wriggle room, especially as the reduction of the size of the French State is such a small part of the deal and industry is going to struggle to pay more taxes.

The President appealed to Patriotism which is always a sign of weakness and, I seem to remember, the last resort of a scoundrel.

 

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[quote user="Aly"][quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote]
We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said.
[/quote]

Well if he does that he will seriously harm the housing market. that coupled with the predicted high inflation from the ECB buying of bonds will make life very uncomfortable for many. God knows what he is planning to do to enterprise in his efforts to raise another 10billion..Without growth these actions are all meaningless in the LT
[/quote]

 

"he will seriously harm the housing market"

I don't believe "The Housing Market" exists in France in the same way as british people seem to view it - as a kind of commodity exchange reserved for those wealthy enough to get into.

Although I'm sure there are those who will argue that it is a function of the rich to provide housing for the poor. (Whilst making a healthy profit, of course)

There are many who do not delight in house prices increasing year on year, often by double percentage figures, putting the chance of owning one ever further from their reach.

Maybe Mr Hollande wants to actively discourage tendencies in this direction.

As for growth, the policies of the UK government in rather the opposite direction are not exactly producing spectacular evidence of this. [:D]

 

Edit: Add a big smiley for Mr Cameron's efforts.

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[quote user="nomoss"]

[quote user="Aly"][quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote]

We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said.

[/quote]

Well if he does that he will seriously harm the housing market. that coupled with the predicted high inflation from the ECB buying of bonds will make life very uncomfortable for many. God knows what he is planning to do to enterprise in his efforts to raise another 10billion..Without growth these actions are all meaningless in the LT

[/quote]

 

"he will seriously harm the housing market"

I don't believe "The Housing Market" exists in France in the same way as british people seem to view it - as a kind of commodity exchange reserved for those wealthy enough to get into.

Although I'm sure there are those who will argue that it is a function of the rich to provide housing for the poor. (Whilst making a healthy profit, of course)

There are many who do not delight in house prices increasing year on year, often by double percentage figures, putting the chance of owning one ever further from their reach.

Maybe Mr Hollande wants to actively discourage tendencies in this direction.

As for growth, the policies of the UK government in rather the opposite direction are not exactly producing spectacular evidence of this. [:D]

 

Edit: Add a big smiley for Mr Cameron's efforts.

Paris, Nice and other cities as well as some of the more desirable regions have seen huge price hikes in the housing market.

I agree with your comments abt the UK, I think they have gone to far with austerity and the French not far enough. Time will tell.

.

[/quote]
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I think that the nub is here:

Alignement de la fiscalité du capital et du travail

François

Hollande a rappelé sa volonté d'aligner la fiscalité du capital sur

celle du travail. Jusqu'à présent, les dividendes peuvent être taxés,

grâce au prélèvement forfaitaire, à 21 % et les intérêts à 24 %. Les

plus-values immobilières et de cession de titres le sont à 19 %. Avec

l'alignement, dividendes, intérêts et plus-values seront taxés au barème

de l'IR, donc à 5,5 %, 14 %, 30 %, 41 % ou 45 %, selon les revenus des

foyers. Les contribuables des trois tranches supérieures seront

perdants.

That is to say that up till now  dividends and rents have been taxed at lower rates than income from working, and so in order to bring them into line there will be a similar graded taxation with tax bands as for income tax of 5,5 %, 14 %, 30 %, 41 % ou 45 %.
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I thought it was an accepted economic argument that you tax gains less than income to allow for the offset of inflation and encourage entrepereneurship. 

If France do tax income and gains at the same rate, they will be one of the very few if not only country that does and it is not even a policy that the UK Labour party would adopt.

A lot of professional class French bought second homes as an investment, as the previous tax breaks were generous, and it was capital gains tax free if you owned it more than 15 years. With the loss of the tax breaks and the need now to own the property more than thirty years, it is inevitable the French property market will feel the impact in areas where French owned second homes are popular and indeed this is already being reported. 

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I don't think that second homes figure very highly in this thinking, even if they are significant for members of this Forum.

I think it is targeted more at rentiers, who,  with the higher proportion of people in rented accommodation, and all those who own les murs of the shops and restaurants and charge high rents to the businesses that are struggling to survive,  have escaped relatively lightly so far.

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According to this article in Le Monde 20 million of the worst off taxpayers shouldn't be affected by the tax rises announced last night

http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2012/09/10/vingt-millions-de-foyers-non-concernes-par-les-hausses-d-impot-en-2013-selon-un-syndicat_1758062_823448.html

Although the tax band levels will be frozen, which could mean that some people become liable to tax or to a higher rate, there will be a décote for the bottom two bands to prevent this happening.

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[quote user="Sprogster"]

I thought it was an accepted economic argument that you tax gains less than income to allow for the offset of inflation and encourage entrepereneurship. 

Calculations of capital gains allow for inflation before the tax is calculated, so that is no reason for a lower tax rate.

I don't think someone buying and selling his own property can be classed as an entrepreneur.

If France do tax income and gains at the same rate, they will be one of the very few if not only country that does and it is not even a policy that the UK Labour party would adopt.

Spain added capital gains of residents onto their other income to calculate tax, with non residents paying a flat rate, until the EU court made them change to equal treatment for all EU subjects. I suspect this happened in other EU countries.

A lot of professional class French bought second homes as an investment, as the previous tax breaks were generous, and it was capital gains tax free if you owned it more than 15 years. With the loss of the tax breaks and the need now to own the property more than thirty years, it is inevitable the French property market will feel the impact in areas where French owned second homes are popular and indeed this is already being reported. 

Why shouldn't people rich enough to own second homes pay more taxes?

If the "property market" "suffers", who does this hurt?

[/quote]
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If the "property market" "suffers", who does this hurt?

More than you might think, people moving tend to spend money on all matter of ancillary things, improvements(thus using the building trades), furniture, carpets, curtains.......thats why the UK goverment are keen to get the housing market moving (though IMHO they have not gone about in an effective way, but thats another issue)

 

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I wondered why there are so many ads for sofas, carpets and bathrooms on UK commercial TV.

It's a bit sad if the UK's economy does no longer depend on engineering, manufacturing and entrepreneurs, but on people moving house and buying carpets, furniture, kitchens, bathrooms and conservatories - all probably made in China [:D]

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[quote user="KathyF"]Says who? There are lots of British firms making household furnishings and when we put new double glazing and a conservatory in our UK house recently all the units were British-made.[/quote]

Pleased to hear you're doing your bit for the british economy[:D]

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 A buoyant housing market (new and old houses) has long said to  be a key ingredient in the ecomomy.

According to a radio programme I heard the other day we do have an  engineering industry which is improving, hampered by a lack of suitably qualified people, but its not the heavy industry we used to have.....

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