French Tax - Decote

[Gardian]

I've finally received my Avis d'Impots for 2011 and sadly it appears to be correct.

The only small possible crumb of comfort is the non application of a decote. This normally applies if your liability is less than €878.

Is this applicable though to the 'Impot Net Avant Corrections' or to the 'Impot Net' (i.e. after 'Credit sur Rev Etrangers')?

I've trawled the impots website and can't find the answer. Does anybody know?

[NormanH]

But surely a décote is a diminution of the amount, so why would the non-application be a crumb of comfort?

La décote

Lorsque le montant annuel de la taxe due est supérieur à 840 € sans dépasser 1 680 €, une décote est appliquée afin de limiter le montant de la taxe. Cette décote est égale aux trois quarts de la différence entre 1 680 € et le montant de la taxe.

La décote est normalement appliquée lors de la régularisation annuelle de la taxe.

There is a worked example here:

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/popup?typePage=cpr02&espId=2&docOid=documentstandard_1845

[Gardian]

Its non application (if I'm right) would be a crumb of comfort, because I might get a few euros back. You know bloomin' well what I mean !!

Anyway, thanks for the link, but I've seen that one and it has nothing to do with the decote you're entitled to if your liability falls below €878. It can make quite a difference, because it more or less halved my liability in 2010.

[NormanH]

Sorry I wasn't being pedantic, even if I am well capable of it, I was being Senior [:$]

Is this what  you mean?

Les personnes qui bénéficient de la décote sont celles dont l'impôt brut (après application du plafonnement lié au quotient familial) est inférieur à 878 €.

http://impotsurlerevenu.org/comprendre-le-calcul-de-l-impot/559-decote-de-l-impot.php

On mine they used  the impôt before the credit d'impôt to calculate the décote.

[parsnips]

[quote user="NormanH"]Sorry I wasn't being pedantic, even if I am well capable of it, I was being Senior [:$]

Is this what  you mean?

Les personnes qui bénéficient de la décote sont celles dont l'impôt brut (après application du plafonnement lié au quotient familial) est inférieur à 878 €.

http://impotsurlerevenu.org/comprendre-le-calcul-de-l-impot/559-decote-de-l-impot.php

On mine they used  the impôt before the credit d'impôt to calculate the décote.

[/quote]

Hi,

     My office also applied the decote before the credit ie. they applied the decote to a "notional" tax which , being greater than the actual tax due after the credit , reduced the amount of decote.  I am starting an argument with them .

 Here is the letter I am going to send which explains what I see as their mistake;

     IMPUTATION DE LA DECOTE, REVENU ETRANGER

 

"Je ne suis pas d’accord avec votre calcul de l’impôt dû sur les revenus imposables en France , prenant en compte les revenus déjà impôsés en Royaume -Uni.

 

  Vous avez imputé la décote sur l’impôt « global », lequel est calculé sur le somme total des revenus imposables en France et les revenus déjà imposés en Royaume - Uni.   Cet « impôt global » n’est pas un impôt dû en France, en fait ce n’est qu’un élément  du calcul  pour trouver l’impôt français dû.

  

  Votre brochure «  ir 2012/ud 092.html «    ( copie ci jointe ) explique que « l’impôt global » corresponde aux « revenu global «  (français + étranger).  Le crédit (impôt global x rev.étranger exempté / revenu global ) s’impute sur l’impôt « global ».

     Cette brochure ne dit rien de la décote, mais votre brochure « ir 2012/ud 084.html « (copie ci jointe) qui  explique la règle  du « taux effectif » , dit clairement que la décote doit s’imputer sur « l’impôt effectivement dû » , et les autres réductions après la décote.

   

 Vu le fait que les systèmes «  du crédit » et du  « taux effectif » sont tous les deux des méthodes  pour calculer « l’impôt effectivement dû » en France , il me semble logique que la décote s’impute après le calcul de cet impôt a été complété dans les deux systèmes , et l’impôt effectivement dû en France a été calculé."

I fully expect that this will go all the way through the appeals system , if necessary to the "Mediateur ".

       

   

[NormanH]

What you say seems entirely correct to me.

It seemed odd to apply the décote  to the amount before the credit was taken off, but as (just for this year) it made no difference I was guilty of letting it slip. (It made no difference this year because I had only one month's OAP to take into account, so in fact I didn't have to pay any tax. Next year I will have a whole year's worth and I will)

Good luck with this.

[Gardian]

Thanks Norman - yes, that's the decote that I was talking about.

Thanks too Parsnips - that's precisely what I was getting at and I'll use your text if I may on our local Tax Inspector who is quite a good bloke (well, he responds promptly to emails anyway). I'll let you know the outcome.

In truth, its not a big deal for this year: if he agrees with your hypothesis it'll get me just a few Euros back, but I'd sooner get my spreadsheet right for future situations.

BTW, the Impots seem to have their act together over the 'new' method of dealing with governmental income. It does make quite a big difference to us, but I've no complaints overall.

[tinabee]

[quote user="Gardian"]Thanks Norman - yes, that's the decote that I was talking about. Thanks too Parsnips - that's precisely what I was getting at and I'll use your text if I may on our local Tax Inspector who is quite a good bloke (well, he responds promptly to emails anyway). I'll let you know the outcome. In truth, its not a big deal for this year: if he agrees with your hypothesis it'll get me just a few Euros back, but I'd sooner get my spreadsheet right for future situations. BTW, the Impots seem to have their act together over the 'new' method of dealing with governmental income. It does make quite a big difference to us, but I've no complaints overall.[/quote]

Hi

Have been out of touch for a while and only just picked up on this issue - has anyone had a reply from their tax office? 

[parsnips]

[quote user="tinabee"]

[quote user="Gardian"]Thanks Norman - yes, that's the decote that I was talking about. Thanks too Parsnips - that's precisely what I was getting at and I'll use your text if I may on our local Tax Inspector who is quite a good bloke (well, he responds promptly to emails anyway). I'll let you know the outcome. In truth, its not a big deal for this year: if he agrees with your hypothesis it'll get me just a few Euros back, but I'd sooner get my spreadsheet right for future situations. BTW, the Impots seem to have their act together over the 'new' method of dealing with governmental income. It does make quite a big difference to us, but I've no complaints overall.[/quote]

Hi

Have been out of touch for a while and only just picked up on this issue - has anyone had a reply from their tax office? 

[/quote]

Hi,

     I, and a friend on whose behalf I also wrote, had a "refus" (from the same tax office), based ,as usual, on totally spurious grounds.   As I had , in fact , paid no tax , I let it go , and my friend , standing to gain only 50€ or so, and fearing to attract the attention of the dreaded "fisc", also let it go.

      Next year, if it affects my present tax-less status , I will pursue the matter through the appeals system. 

[tinabee]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="tinabee"]

[quote user="Gardian"]Thanks Norman - yes, that's the decote that I was talking about. Thanks too Parsnips - that's precisely what I was getting at and I'll use your text if I may on our local Tax Inspector who is quite a good bloke (well, he responds promptly to emails anyway). I'll let you know the outcome. In truth, its not a big deal for this year: if he agrees with your hypothesis it'll get me just a few Euros back, but I'd sooner get my spreadsheet right for future situations. BTW, the Impots seem to have their act together over the 'new' method of dealing with governmental income. It does make quite a big difference to us, but I've no complaints overall.[/quote]

Hi

Have been out of touch for a while and only just picked up on this issue - has anyone had a reply from their tax office? 

[/quote]

Hi,
     I, and a friend on whose behalf I also wrote, had a "refus" (from the same tax office), based ,as usual, on totally spurious grounds.   As I had , in fact , paid no tax , I let it go , and my friend , standing to gain only 50€ or so, and fearing to attract the attention of the dreaded "fisc", also let it go.
      Next year, if it affects my present tax-less status , I will pursue the matter through the appeals system. 
[/quote]

Thanks for that. I may have a go since it has affected us by a few hundred this year and last, and may be more next year. I'll let you all know how we get on.

[Gardian]

I must admit that I 'chickened out' for the same reasons as Parsnips' friend, but I'd be very interested to hear the outcome if you raise it with them.

 

[tinabee]

Sorry for the delay in posting - have been offline for a while due to a dead Wibox.  Here is the reply I had from the tax office:

"Le Royaume-Uni et la France ont signé une nouvelle convention relative à l'imposition des revenus acquis au Royaume –Uni.

A compter du 1er janvier 2010 la nouvelle convention du 19 juin 2008 est applicable.

L’article 24 de la nouvelle convention stipule que la double imposition sera évitée par l'imputation d'un crédit d'impôt et non plus selon la règle du taux effectif.

Le crédit d’impôt est égal au montant de l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus à condition que le résident soit soumis à l’impôt du Royaume uni à raison de ces revenus.

Vos impositions, avant imputation du crédit d’impôt mentionné ci dessus, étant supérieure à 878 € la décote ne s’applique plus."

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="tinabee"]

Sorry for the delay in posting - have been offline for a while due to a dead Wibox.  Here is the reply I had from the tax office:

"Le Royaume-Uni et la France ont signé une nouvelle convention relative à l'imposition des revenus acquis au Royaume –Uni.

A compter du 1er janvier 2010 la nouvelle convention du 19 juin 2008 est applicable.

L’article 24 de la nouvelle convention stipule que la double imposition sera évitée par l'imputation d'un crédit d'impôt et non plus selon la règle du taux effectif.

Le crédit d’impôt est égal au montant de l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus à condition que le résident soit soumis à l’impôt du Royaume uni à raison de ces revenus.

Vos impositions, avant imputation du crédit d’impôt mentionné ci dessus, étant supérieure à 878 € la décote ne s’applique plus."

Hi,

   They have made exactly the same mistake; the "credit" under the treaty is not like other credits ( for installing insulation etc.) , it is an integral part of the calculation o f the "impot effectivement du" in France , and should be subtracted from the "impot global" (calculated on global income) to arrive at the "impot effectivement du" --after that the decote should be applied , and then any other credits.

   The problem is , that while both the taux effectif and the credit should obviously be applied to arrive at the tax due ,BEFORE applying the decote only the brochure for the "taux effectif" clearly spells this out in the example it gives ; any intelligent reading of the two brochures together , with their definitions of "global" and "effective" tax will convince (anyone but a french tax agent) that the decote should not be applied to the "global" tax.

See the brochures here;   www.doc.impots.gouv.fr/aida/brochures_ir2011/ud_091.html

                             and;     www.doc.impots.gouv.fr/aida/brochures_ir2012/ud_084.html

    I suggest that you make application to the tribunal adminstrative and the conciliateur fiscal , basing your argument on these two brochures.

     Please let us know the outcome.

    

 

[/quote]

[NormanH]

So for the moment there are those who pay too much tax to be concerned by the Décote (tinabee) or so little, or none, that we didn't follow it up last year. ( Gardian, parsnip's friend and me)

In my case at least I expect to pay around 600€ next year, as for the first time I  will be paying on a whole year's OAP which will take me into the 14% band. This falls nicely into the 'under 878' category, so I will want to pursue it more vigorously.