CAROL CONCERTS

[Scooby]

Very sensible comments from the Bishop.

[buelligan]

Habari HM!  Have another read through the thread!  I think you'll find that there were grumpyish words said (maybe even by you) long before Dog posted.  IMO, what he did post was perfectly OK (but that's just MO, I suppose)...  Hakuna matata![:)]

[hakunamatata]

Habari rafiki, wanaimba carols nchini Kenya! Mimi tu alitaka kutangaza a michache Carol matamasha, si dunia kuanza vita 3.

[Clair]

[quote user="hakunamatata"]Habari rafiki, wanaimba carols nchini Kenya! Mimi tu alitaka kutangaza a michache Carol matamasha, si dunia kuanza vita 3.[/quote]

An opinion which differs from yours is not a declaration of war or abuse. It's just a different opinion!

Why is it so difficult to accept that not everyone agrees with whatever it is others believe in?

Why take a different opinion as a personal slight?

[Scooby]

HM is saying that she didn't intend to start world war three.  Where did you learn Swahili HM?

[Russethouse]

 I'd suggest it's in the tone of some of the posts, you know the 'if you do this you are slightly simple/ignorant etc. Its patronising at best.

Live and let live [Www]

[hakunamatata]

Clair, you are a sensible person, believe me I agree everyone can have their own opinion. Lets go back a step here however. I simply said "our choir is holding two carol concerts....." I did not say everyone must hold or attend or agree with or enjoy carol concerts. Why do people have to blow things out of all proportion? It was just a simple plug for the choir. END OF STORY - I am off to make some yoghurt!

[Hoddy]

I'm with you on this one, Hakunamatata. We don't have all this fuss when someone gives information about a motor cycle ride out. As far as I know compulsory churchgoing ended years ago.

Hoddy

[mint]

[quote user="Clair"]Bishop attacks 'nonsense' Christmas carols
[/quote]

Nice link, Clair.  I could just imagine the old bish holding forth about this.

To be fair to Norman (and everybody deserves not to be accused of things of which they are innocent), all he said initially simply made a distinction between choral singing and the singing of carols.

Anyway, if I have any bias at all, it's got to be towards Norman on this occasion because I had hours of Baroque music and singing instead of boring old cleaning yesterday afternoon!

Clair, with her commonsense, is right, of course.  There will always be differences of opinions and, provided no accusing finger or personal name-calling is involved, I think the richness of Forum life has to derive from people coming forward with all different points of view and perspectives.

[Hoddy]

If we're going to be really fair, that's not what NormanH said inititally. He first post on the thread questioned the introduction of "Little British Habits".

Hoddy

[mint]

And so he did, Hoddy!

I'm afraid Norman is a lost cause and I shall henceforth stop defending him.[Www]

 

[NormanH]

Thanks for your efforts anyway sweet 17.

Hoddy: the difference between a motor cycle ride and a carol concert is that the first doesn't enter into a sensitive area.

There may even be French motor cyclists!

However the singing of religious songs (something taken for granted in Britain) is far less anodyne in France.

You won't find religious carols (as opposed to Petit papa Noel type Christmas songs) in state schools, just as there are no prayers.

Any individual is of course free to believe any mumbo-jumbo, but the advantage of the secular republic is that they are not allowed to bring it into the non-religious fields of education law etc.

There is a clear separation between the church and state

It is incomprehensible to my French friends that Bishops have a right to sit in the House of Lords, and thus to influence the law-making process.

A British choirmaster in my town faced a walkout by members of his  (French) choir when he tried to get them singing carols (especially 'O come O come Emmanuel with its references to Israel).

As I tried to show with some references, Carol services are a very British thing: even carol concerts have not been a feature of any French town I have known in the way that they sometimes are in British towns..

So blindly continuing with a British tradition which might upset sensibilities is not quite the same as advertising a motor-cycle ride.

I wish everybody a Happy Christmas. It won't be tuneless..

I will have the Charpentier, or  the Berlioz "l'enfance du Christ

if I want to listen to French Christmas music, or of course the incomparable Christmas Oratorio

But I won't be imposing them on anybody

[mint]

Yes, I, too, support the disestablishment of the Church but I can't see that happening in the UK.

But, Norman, no Handel?

Mind you, I was messiah-ed out last Christmas.  Just wish I could go to a live performance like I was wont to do when I lived in that land of unbelieving believers.

[Judith]

[quote user="NormanH"]

I will have the Charpentier, or  the Berlioz "l'enfance du Christ

if I want to listen to French Christmas music, or of course the incomparable Christmas Oratorio

But I won't be imposing them on anybody

[/quote]

I think you'll find they were both penned by people who believed in what they were writing about - otherwise they would not have been anything like so beautiful.  And they cannot be classed as anything other than religious even if they are not called carols, they are singing about exactly the same belief.

As previously suggested, the OP did not impose her advert on anyone, just made the knowledge that they existed available for those who might like to go along. 

And I know lots of French carols, and they are sung by French people as well (yes, it happened in my presence on Sunday - not in a church, but at a fête de noël).

[Quillan]

I don't know much about Carol and Choral stuff but what I will say is that there is a Anglican presence in France and there is one in Limoux (about 30 minutes from us) and you can find more about the Limoux one HERE.

If you are looking for an Anglican/Protestant English speaking church in your area then you may find THIS webpage helpful. Many of these churches also have 'outreach' services in French Catholic churches so pick on one near you which will take you to their webpage were you will find the outreach services run by that particular church.

Many of these churches have been here (in France) from before WW1, a lot longer than may of those that frequent this forum and yes they run annual Carol concerts in English for English speaking people in France although of course French people are always welcome as is anyone else.

Not my 'cup of tea' as I am not particularly interested but I thought I would post it for those that are.

 

[mint]

Judith writes:

And they cannot be classed as anything other than religious even if they are not called carols, they are singing about exactly the same belief.

I think that's the whole point though, Judith, that you don't have to be religious or a believer in order to have produced wonderful religious music or art.

Not only that, you don't even have to be a "good" person, in the Church's eyes, in order to write sublime music for the conduct of religion.  Anyone who has watched Amadeus (the play or the film) would have seen that that was one contradiction that Salieri couldn't get his head around.  That here was this immoral buffoon, Mozart , who could write the sort of music that he, Salieri, could never do.

Of course, imperfection could extend to the very head organization of the Church (the Papacy, for example). But an imperfect "vehicle" is no bar to the production of Perfection itself.  After all, look what the Papacy did for the Renaissance! 

[Gardengirl]

Norman said, ''even carol concerts have not been a feature of any French town I have known in the way that they sometimes are in British towns..''

I mentioned earlier how much we enjoyed a carol concert in our town in the south of France last year, performed in French by French people; I think there were about four English people in the audience. If we could be there this year we would attend again, as it's an annual affair, performed for anyone who would like to attend and free of charge.

 

[NormanH]

So the exception proves the rule.

How long has this been going on, and are you sure they aren't some religious nutters?

[Gardengirl]

What would you call religious nutters, Norman? They are a group of people who get together and sing at excellent concerts all through the year in  the region, and perform a carol concert each Christmas. They appear to be normal people, who love singing and are very good at it; oh, and some are also excellent musicians.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Judith"][quote user="NormanH"]

I will have the Charpentier, or  the Berlioz "l'enfance du Christ

if I want to listen to French Christmas music, or of course the incomparable Christmas Oratorio

But I won't be imposing them on anybody

[/quote]

I think you'll find they were both penned by people who believed in what they were writing about - otherwise they would not have been anything like so beautiful. .

[/quote]

A common fallacy.

Do you think that a website designer has to have belief in the cause  to do a good job? a coutourier or photographer heterosexual to design clothes which make women look good, or take enticing photos?

It is a question of technique not of belief.

[NormanH]

I'd be interested in the detailed programme, and any examples of this prior to the English  media-driven infestation of France about 7 years ago.

It sounds to me a rare example of copying an Anglo-Saxon tradition, as the brief craze for Halloween about 4 years ago.

[hakunamatata]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2QEYNMIem4

FRENCH CAROL SUNG BY FRENCH CHOIR

SURPRISE SURPRISE

[Russethouse]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Judith"][quote user="NormanH"]
I will have the Charpentier, or  the Berlioz "l'enfance du Christ
if I want to listen to French Christmas music, or of course the incomparable Christmas Oratorio

But I won't be imposing them on anybody

[/quote]
I think you'll find they were both penned by people who believed in what they were writing about - otherwise they would not have been anything like so beautiful. .
[/quote]
A common fallacy.
Do you think that a website designer has to have belief in the cause  to do a good job? a coutourier or photographer heterosexual to design clothes which make women look good, or take enticing photos?
It is a question of technique not of belief.
[/quote]

 Just sometimes Norman....

Which  photographer or courtourier  is totally without sexuality, which web site designer without an idea of the goal, which human without soul ?

Anyway if you had read the Wiki link I posted you would see it spoke of French carols from centuries ago, and carols from other European countries too......there doesn't seem to be much particuarly British about it overall.

[Dog]

[quote user="hakunamatata"]Dog[/quote]

Cheer up - just because I don't always agree.

I have sung more Carols, Requiems, Messiahs and Psalms than you have had hot.... whatevers.....

[Judith]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Judith"]

I think you'll find they were both penned by people who believed in what they were writing about - otherwise they would not have been anything like so beautiful. .

[/quote]

A common fallacy.

Do you think that a website designer has to have belief in the cause  to do a good job? a coutourier or photographer heterosexual to design clothes which make women look good, or take enticing photos?

It is a question of technique not of belief.

[/quote]

I certainly believe that in the period which we are talking about a belief in what they were doing was part of the life - historically the church and religion played an immense part in everyday life - whether you liked it not, you could not escape it.  It was part of the culture, as watching TV is today.