NormanH Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 The method of calculating the 'valeur locative' that is the nominal rental value which is the base of calculating the Taxe d'Habitation hasn't kept up with the times.In particular that often means that more recent properties have a much higher tax imposed than on older ones, even those which have been substantially renovated.This is about to change.A new system is being brought in which is likely to see the Taxe d'Habitation on old properties, especially those which have been substantially improved, rise considerably.The detail is here: http://www.mairieconseils.net/cs/BlobServer?blobkey=id&blobnocache=true&blobwhere=1250167926019&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Strange.Our flat was built in 1976.It is the same floor area as that of friends of ours whose flat is nearby, but built in 2004-5.Our TF and TdH are almost exactly the same as theirs - and each is the equivalent of 1.5 month's rental of our place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneySuckleDreams Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Sorry Norman, could you paraphrase the document a bit please? It's 58 pages long of which 29 are annexes. We're already paying a fortune for tax d'hab, and this may be the straw that sees the camel off to a happier place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 There was quite a lot about it on french news tonight and I'm sure that there will be much in many papers in the next few days. Too many anomalies in the system. I can see friends of mine getting a huge bill in the future, never mind the new rules, all they'd have to do is they check how much is habitable in their place, because when they bought it only half the place was declared. As you said HSD, could be the last straw for many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 It will have a big impact on an already weak French housing market. It may may be the last straw for many but who do you sell too?Lets just hope its one of these bright ideas that never gets anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 [quote user="idun"]There was quite a lot about it on french news tonight and I'm sure that there will be much in many papers in the next few days. Too many anomalies in the system. I can see friends of mine getting a huge bill in the future, never mind the new rules, all they'd have to do is they check how much is habitable in their place, because when they bought it only half the place was declared. As you said HSD, could be the last straw for many.[/quote] Hello Idun, I think the same may just be happening to me.. not quite sure yet !!! ie half declared. what happened to your friends ? is there a maximum that can be paid ?? we have about 250sqm all in . Plus garages , realise may be different from area to area, ball park figures would be helpful from anyone.. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Lol Bill, this is France we are talking about and these things take time. They will get this increase, or not, next year or the year after or some vague time in the future. I shall post if this happens to them. What I know is that some people pay a huge amount of taxe fonciere as another friend always has. I'm afraid I have no idea if there is a plafond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I don't get this.As Norman has said, TdH is driven by the valeur locative. If a property has been improved and the proper process has been followed, then the vl will have been automatically re-assessed. It was for us - increased by 50%. that didn't mean that the TdH increased by that percentage, but you get my drift.No complaint from us.I haven't read Norman's original link, but surely the need is simply to insist on all Permis de Construire being followed through to their completion and a re-assessment done. The process is there, it just needs firm application.As for history, that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 As far as I can see it penalises those people who have made improvements. You make the place more comfortable, you pay more; you live in a hovel, you pay less.Very much like the old "rateable value" we had in UK, a finger-in-the-air assessment of worth.There's going to be a huge workforce needed surely, in order to get the initial valuations done?I appreciate that there has to be some system in place to raise local taxes, but I've never understood how the value of your home makes it a fair system; just because you save and invest doesn't mean that you can necessarily afford higher charges.Which brings up the "Poll tax" versus "rates" argument once again. I have to admit to being in favour of Maggie's Poll-tax, where everybody paid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I will watch this with interest. Our TdH is already high, compared to our UK taxes. The total local tax bill is greater in France, and it's extremely close to a like-for-like comparison, in terms of both size and age of property. Not only that, but we had a Council Tax reduction in the UK this year. Mind you, we haven't made any improvements other than cosmetic ones to our French home. It's structurally just the same as when we bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 [quote user="sid"]As far as I can see it penalises those people who have made improvements. You make the place more comfortable, you pay more; you live in a hovel, you pay less.Very much like the old "rateable value" we had in UK, a finger-in-the-air assessment of worth.There's going to be a huge workforce needed surely, in order to get the initial valuations done?I appreciate that there has to be some system in place to raise local taxes, but I've never understood how the value of your home makes it a fair system; just because you save and invest doesn't mean that you can necessarily afford higher charges.Which brings up the "Poll tax" versus "rates" argument once again. I have to admit to being in favour of Maggie's Poll-tax, where everybody paid! [/quote] Bring back Maggie , all is forgiven !!!! thanks everyone for the replies .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 "I appreciate that there has to be some system in place to raise local taxes, but I've never understood how the value of your home makes it a fair system"Technically, it's not the 'value' of your home is it, it's the 'rentable value', i.e. if all the houses in the town were up for rent, the owners of the most desirable reses in the best part of town with the nicest views and most amenities, who would get the most rent if they rented the property out, would contribute most to the town's coffers. Makes sense in an inside out sort of way.Plus, has anyone pointed out yet that taxe d'hab for residents is income-based? (Sorry, can't remember what's been said in this thread and what hasn't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 [quote user="EuroTrash"]Plus, has anyone pointed out yet that taxe d'hab for residents is income-based? [/quote]I presume that you mean that there are rebates for low incomes? AFAIK, the TdH is set for a property and that's what we pay as non-residents. Wealthy residents would pay the same minus 3% (? 2%? Can't remember now ...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 is it different for non residents, we have a holiday home.. rgdsBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommier Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 No reductions for second home owners I'm afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 [quote user="Bill"]is it different for non residents, we have a holiday home..[/quote] IIRC, there is no difference between residents and non-residents with respect to the TdH on a holiday home, but not only do you not get the rebates accorded to people in respect of their principal residence, you also pay a bit more: [quote]Prélèvements pour base élevée et sur résidences secondaires:Le prélèvement pour base élevée est effectué au profit de l’État sur les locaux à forte valeur locative. Un taux s’applique à la base nette communale.Résidences secondairesTaux de 1,2 % si la base est comprise entre 4 573 € et 7 622 € ;1,7 % si elle excède 7 622 €.Résidences principalesTaux de 0,2 % si la base excède 4 573 €.Le prélèvement sur les résidences secondaires (locaux meublés non affectés à l’habitation principale) est perçu au profit de l’État. Son taux (1,5 %) s’applique au total des cotisations communale et intercommunale.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 ouch, the implication is, holiday home pays 7 times as much as a local, uses 1/12th of the services, and that could be a mighty sum of money ! rgds Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 The "valeur locative" (which is effectively the rateable value, of which we pay a percentage) of our flat is about 5500€: this equates to approx 5 month's actual long-term rent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 [quote user="Bill"] ouch, the implication is, holiday home pays 7 times as much as a local, uses 1/12th of the services, and that could be a mighty sum of money ! [/quote]Hang on a mo; you said previously that you have 250m2 of living space and outbuildings. How many of your neighbours have the same?Where I live you would possibly need to be a millionaire to be able to afford 250m2 of living space. We have 109 m2 - I have just filled in the H1 form after our purchase last year so this I know to be the right m2. The previous owner did much the same as yours ie additions etc (with planning permission) but without declaring the new build bits to the fisc so we will be in much the same boat as you as regards taxe d'hab.But if you have the benefit of so much space surely you should expect to pay for it ?Sorry to seem to rant, but there is no way OH and I could afford a second home; we are having quite enough difficulty paying for the first !Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Bill, you don't use a 12th of the services. The services have to be there, even if you are not there. They have to empty the bins, and keep the commune ready for all the population. It isn't the communes fault that you are not there more often.There is a great deal of difference between having a second home and booking a hotel for a month a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 "ouch, the implication is, holiday home pays 7 times as much as a local, uses 1/12th of the services, and that could be a mighty sum of money !"1. Where do you get SEVEN times as much from??? I thought it was less than 2% more.2. Surely, if someone has bought a holiday home that is exclusively for their own personal use for one month of the year, and they aren't intending to to let it out, money can't be an issue. It's like buying a Rolls Royce and then complaining about the price of petrol.3. I guess the perception is that the people who live there are kind of providing a service to the second home owners and the people they rent their cottages to. The full-time residents keep the commune going, act as part of the props and the stage set, and generally make it a desirable holiday resort for the holiday home owners to take pleasure in while they are there, or make money out of from their paying guests. So you could look at it like a taxe de séjour, or holiday tax, paid annually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I understood from Pickles post that non-residentspaid 1.7 percent and residents 0.2 percent, hence the multiple actually of 7 or8 times as much. That may be the wrong conclusion , yet it ishow I understood his post. Idun, No problem withpaying for 12 months, and using it for four, but find it odd that the demand is to pay extra if it’s a holiday home and as a result use less services . Euro trash see below re your comment about cost and rolls Royce,For the local community I employed French labour at French rates for British owners. As for Sue’s comment, I am sorry for your circumstances, butto get an answer to my question , I had to give two bits of information, one it’sa holiday home and two the size, &that has kicked off an offensive diatribe from you , and one diatribe deservesanother.. J edit. My French house cost verymuch less than a two bedroomed flat in parts of Essex . Certainly not a millionalthough the French artisans, certainly tried to push the cost up !!! we didn’textend it, we repaired what was there, that’s all. French houses are incredible cheap compared tothe UK and seem to be getting cheaper as each day goes by. I understood from the messages, that I had topay 7 times as much as others, and if so, I think that’s too much.. . I just have a big place, but it was dirt cheap.. & I need to worry about how much tax we are going to be hit with, as that wasn't clear , for what ever reason, when we bought it.. rgds Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 The french local taxes are in two parts. Taxe d'habitation and taxe fonciere. There are many 'nuances' with these for residents. Too long to go on about. Non residents do not benefit from any of the relief residents get. ie us when we left France, our french income was taxed at almost double the rate it was when we lived there. I don't know how much you have to pay, it will depend on many things. My friend (french) pays more than anyone else in our old french village, and yet gets less services. And she has complained and has never had her bills reduced.And that is just how it is. When I moved to France, my part of France was very expensive property far more expensive than most of the UK, how things change. Ofcourse some parts of France were probably have been cheap then too, something to do with the young fleeing because there was no work and moving to the likes of my old region. And that was how we made friends with people from all over France, we became neighbours. And I instinctively back away from so many of the regions that have become so popular with the british, and dutch and maybe germans too and wonder if the increased prices that were paid by incomers/2nd home people are sustainable, or just a bubble.edit: properly registered french artisans have to pay a fortune to the french government in cotisations (a variety of stoppages), plus their insurance. A good artisan will make a living wage, but I have yet to see a rich one. And some of us have worked during the holidays and xmas day etc. My son does in France, on the SMIC he cannot even afford to buy, never mind a second home. And if you think that the french are doing you over with local taxes, well people in in restauration in France are done over all the time, it is shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 And that is just how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I have just edited my post, yours was not showing on my screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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