Bounced cheque

[Chancer]

I paid in a Goodyear last week, long story but its a long term client who is now estranged from their foyer, they had given me a cheque which carried the partners name, not sure if she had forged his signature as so many of you girls seem to do, from hearing some of their exchanges on the phone I did suspect that there might subsequently be a problem with the cheque but as I had recieved the caution in cash I was covered for a week or so.

Thankfully she came to me late one evening with €600, the value of the cheque in cash saying that she had been told that the cheque would not pass, I assumed, wrongly as it turns out, that it had been opposed.

Anyway and interesting experience to learn how much time these things take, I had paid the cheque in on the 12th, she advised me of the problem on the 16th and it was deducted from my account on the 17th shown as impayé. I then waited for the bank to write to me with the cheque and the reason for the impayé.

My bank sent the cheque to me on the 18th showing the motivation for the impayé as provision insufficiante. I would say the cheque had not made its way to the other banque as nothing is stamped on it.

My questions, can someone explain how the cheque clearing system works, I know when I pay one in it shows the balance on my account the next day but it is not as yet cleared, do the banks just say one to the other electronically your client XYZ of account 1234 is paying us €X by cheque No 6789 and it is either paid or refused or does the cheque have to be presented to them for the signature etc?

Where do the good cheques, those that are honoured end up?

I hear so much about the penalties in France for giving a cheque with insufficiant provision, being declared interdit bancaire etc but how exactly does that happen? I wont be representing this cheque having been paid in cash but what sets off any penalties, their bank (I assume they will get charges) or does it have to be the créancier making a porter plainte?

I am beginning to suspect that all the stuff I hear is not true but is sufficient to scare the god fearing imajority nto compliance. 

[idun]

I may be wrong, but I don't think that cheques actually go to the drawer's bank anymore, I think that that cheque would be held in your branch or local siege and they simply ask for the funds these days. If the payment is refused then you will be told why and your account debited again.

I think that they have about 5 working days to do this, so that is within the time frame.

Years ago someone we knew, but IMO, not that well was organising a big fete. They ran out of money and asked us to loan them several thousand FF's and would repay us later. We did, as the fete was quite something usually. I had more or less kissed the money goodbye, when the bloke turned up and gave us a cheque drawn on the assoc who was running the fete.  I paid it in, but even months later, suspected that the bank could go back and return it. In fact it was a year later when I dared cash it.

My 'paranoia' was that 'then' I had heard of a business folding and the bank retrieving payments made to others to cover the debt to them. I have a feeling that this was not an urban myth at the time and that banks, and perhaps along with the courts could raid accounts when someone had been paid by someone who was subsequently in a financial mess.

I must say that since the € some banking things have become simpler in France, including the date de valeur, that used to be a right old mess. When the salary was paid in by 'credit transfer', the date de valeur was the following day. Any cash withdrawn, had a date de valeur as the previous day and paying cheques in, well a few days up to 15 days and often longer.

It is a good job that the girl paid you.

Re signatures, it is very odd in France. I was at the Mairie collecting something for my husband and had to sign their receipt. I signed and put PP and his name. I was reprimanded severely and they had to fill in a new receipt and I was told to just sign as if I was him. I asked if they wanted me to try and sign like him, but they said no, my handwriting, his name. All very 'louche' as far as I am concerned and I don't understand that at all.

[NormanH]

You can believe that the payment has gone through only to find quite a long time later that in fact it didn't.

I have been caught in the awkward position of having a payment going out that I thought had been covered by a preceding cheque which turned out to be no good.

Luckily I was able to get round this but I could have been in  nasty situation through no fault of mine except being too trusting

The whole process of what to do if you get a chèque en bois is shown here:

http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/contents/559-cheque-sans-provision-que-faire

As usual this is fine in theory. In practice things don't always work out [:(]

[woolybanana]

Norman, were those the cheques paid by the caids late at night for small parcels of what is known as baking powder, finest Moroccan of course?

[Chancer]

An interesting read Norman, especially the bit sanction de l'emetteur the cynic in me is wondering whether this does in fact happen systématiquement or again its just the threat that makes 99% believe that it will happen.

Take the case of my wooden cheque, lets say his bank writes telling him to "regularise the situation" which I think they will do as they can charge €30 for it, how will they know that he has done so? I wont be representing the cheque, I have been paid in cash ,if you believe the text he will have to take proof to the bank that the debt has been paid or they will declare him interdit bancaire but would they really do that to a client when there is not a créancier snapping at their heels? If they did the banks would soon have no customers at all. 

[Loiseau]

I became "interdit bancaire" for a short time in 2001.

My husband had died, and I phoned the French bank to tell them and to check that if I made a transfer to top up the account, it would indeed go in. (I had just received a bill for annual rubbish collection dues, which was probably about 300FF.)

They said yes, as we were Monsieur OU Madame, no problem.

So I posted my cheque for the rubbish, transferred the money and thought no more about it.

UNTIL

the postman knocked at my London door and presented two registered letters to be signed for - one to my late husband and one to me - saying we were interdits bancaires.

As you can imagine, there was quite a lot going on at the time at home, but I went straight to the bank as soon as I could make a trip to France to get it sorted.

The conseiller shiwed me a printout that showed the date my transfer had arrived, which seemed to be the day before the rubbish cheque was presented that hAd made me overdrawn by a measly 150FF or so. When I pointed out that the money HAD arrived in time, he said that, ah, it may show on the printout that it had arrived, but really it was not in the account till the next day...

It was a complete impasse, until luckily it turned out that one of my local friends had not only worked for that bank, but had taught the current directeur of my branch earlier in his career. I don't know what he said to him, but I had the directeur call me with the most grovelling apologies afterwards, and magically the whole thing was sorted...

Angela

[Chancer]

Mmm, so maybe it is automatic and he will become interdit bancaire, there are two sides to every story and despite hers being very believable he may have been stitched up.

A crazy system when the bank can just take money out of your account and not even inform you, when they pay any demand for a prélèvement even when they are not authorised, the chances of writing a cheque in good faith only to find the funds you had are no longer there are considerable. 

[AnOther]

We issue precious few French cheques and receive even less, also we are extremely unlikely to be in a position where we're relying on one cheque to clear to draw or issue cheques against but even so where a sizeable sum was involved - lets say €500+ - then unless it were from close friends who I trusted completely I would insist on cash.

As the saying goes, in God we trust all others pay cash [;-)]

[Judith]

This is one reason I always keep a lot more in my French current account than I do with my UK accounts.  Better safe than sorry, even if I would prefer it to be making some interest, it's better than risking the account being "closed".

[idun]

[quote user="Loiseau"]I became "interdit bancaire" for a short time in 2001.

My husband had died, and I phoned the French bank to tell them and to check that if I made a transfer to top up the account, it would indeed go in. (I had just received a bill for annual rubbish collection dues, which was probably about 300FF.)

They said yes, as we were Monsieur OU Madame, no problem.

So I posted my cheque for the rubbish, transferred the money and thought no more about it.

UNTIL

the postman knocked at my London door and presented two registered letters to be signed for - one to my late husband and one to me - saying we were interdits bancaires.

As you can imagine, there was quite a lot going on at the time at home, but I went straight to the bank as soon as I could make a trip to France to get it sorted.

The conseiller shiwed me a printout that showed the date my transfer had arrived, which seemed to be the day before the rubbish cheque was presented that hAd made me overdrawn by a measly 150FF or so. When I pointed out that the money HAD arrived in time, he said that, ah, it may show on the printout that it had arrived, but really it was not in the account till the next day...

It was a complete impasse, until luckily it turned out that one of my local friends had not only worked for that bank, but had taught the current directeur of my branch earlier in his career. I don't know what he said to him, but I had the directeur call me with the most grovelling apologies afterwards, and magically the whole thing was sorted...

Angela[/quote]

I said:

I must say that since the € some banking things have become simpler in

France, including the date de valeur, that used to be a right old mess.

When the salary was paid in by 'credit transfer', the date de valeur was

the following day. Any cash withdrawn, had a date de valeur as the

previous day and paying cheques in, well a few days up to 15 days and

often longer.

And that is what I meant Loiseau, when credits arrived in their account their date de valeur would be the following day.  And if that money was used on the actual day the money arrived, the account holder would be overdrawn. It was a mad system and I'm sure led to many people getting into all sorts of trouble.

That has changed.  The date de valeur thing still exists, but is a lot better than it ever was.

[Loiseau]

Sorry idun. Yes, I was just backing up what you had said, as reading your original post reminded me of my own experience.

And, like Judith, I keep a healthy amount in the French account for that reason.

Angela