Social Charges on UK Investment & Savings Update (if your interested)

[cajal]

Following a refund, in February, of social charges previously levied on our UK investments and savings for 2013 tax year we followed the advice of the tax officer in how we entered this income on our 2014 tax declaration.

This week we received our tax liability account and NO social charges were made against our 2014 UK investment & savings submissions.

Regards

cajal

[mint]

Hope for all of us yet?

Can you say which region or, better still, which département you live in, svp?

[Fittersmate]

Hi cajal - would be helpful to know how you were told to enter investment and savings income on your tax return.

[pomme]

The system is still working slowly.

Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml

was updated 03.08.2015 but there is still no indication of when full implementation of the ruling will occur.

So for the present, it seems some tax offices are taking their own decisions. Those cases may need to be revisited in the future to make sure they do comply correctly.

[mint]

[quote user="pomme"]The system is still working slowly.

Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml

was updated 03.08.2015 but there is still no indication of when full implementation of the ruling will occur.

So for the present, it seems some tax offices are taking their own decisions. Those cases may need to be revisited in the future to make sure they do comply correctly.[/quote]

How did I just knew that it wouldn't be simple or across the board?!

[parsnips]

[quote user="mint"][quote user="pomme"]The system is still working slowly.

Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml

was updated 03.08.2015 but there is still no indication of when full implementation of the ruling will occur.

So for the present, it seems some tax offices are taking their own decisions. Those cases may need to be revisited in the future to make sure they do comply correctly.[/quote]

How did I just knew that it wouldn't be simple or across the board?!

[/quote]

Hi,

      Regarding simplicity, I am in the process of preparing my reclamation for the years in question.   I have been surprised to find that I have paid more in "unseen" contributions (on Assurance Vie euro funds and taxable bank interest -PEL -nice 4.5% interest on old account, -all taken at source by the institutions holding the funds) than the contributions shown on the Avis.

      If any of you have such investments , or similar , check your records to find evidence of contributions taken , and include them in your claim.

     

   

[mint]

Hi Parsnips

Please excuse me for repeating myself because I have written about this before on the forum.

At the time of submitting my tax return (about mid May) I wrote a letter at the same time, setting out all the sums taken from our bank interest and OH's annuities, with dates, etc.

The taxman rang and said I had made an error and that we were due to pay.  It would have been too long and too complicated to have explained.  My printer was on the blink at the time and I couldn't print out the relevant info on the vos droits site and I knew you'd said we could wait till November so I just said I thought he would find I was right and left it at that.

I am now waiting to see what is on the avis and take it from there.

Thank you for posting Parsnips!  I know many on here are waiting to see what your advice would be.

[pomme]

I suspect there could be long delays if they decide to do it properly by completely recalculating the tax and social charges for each year.

As examples, there is the partial tax credit for the charges allowable in the following year so the tax for that following year could be higher.

Could there also be a possible knock-on for anyone who got other benefits, TV licence, etc and even for additional ISF charges for a following year?

Perhaps someone has a better idea of all the possible ramifications.

[parsnips]

[quote user="pomme"]I suspect there could be long delays if they decide to do it properly by completely recalculating the tax and social charges for each year.

As examples, there is the partial tax credit for the charges allowable in the following year so the tax for that following year could be higher.

Could there also be a possible knock-on for anyone who got other benefits, TV licence, etc and even for additional ISF charges for a following year?

Perhaps someone has a better idea of all the possible ramifications.[/quote]

Hi,

     I think it will be as much of a nightmare calculation for them as for us.  The difference is that they get paid for their efforts.  I am  sure that they will delay publishing any new directions as long as possible , and in any case , will only reimburse what is asked for and backed up with documentation.  As with other of their c*ck-ups (eg. UK rents) they will save millions because of people who don't know what's going on, don't realise how much they stand to get back,or cannot handle all the tedious work involved . 

[mrsblack]

hello Parsnips. As one of the people who may not know what is going on could i have help to understand this issue. The french ruling refers to non-residents, yet posters are referring to the declarationswhich i understood one submitted if one was resident. Am I missing something - apart from the 1500 euros asked for after I submitted our first declaration des inpots as permanent residents? Thanks.

[parsnips]

Hi,

    From service -public......     http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml......

        The court ruling accepted by the "Conseil d'Etat" ;....................

"Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents

-

03.08.2015

La Cour de justice de l'union européenne a jugé le 26 février

2015 que les....... "personnes affiliées à un régime de sécurité sociale d'un

autre État membre de l'UE ne peuvent pas être soumises aux prélèvements

sociaux français sur leurs revenus du patrimoine............." Les décisions du

Conseil d'État du * 17 avril et 27 juillet 2015

s'inscrivent dans la même ligne.

Par communiqué de presse

, le gouvernement indique qu'il prendra les dispositions nécessaires. Cette page sera modifiée dès leur publication."

...............makes the point in the decision of  * 17 April 2015, that "people affiliated** to the social security system of another EU member state cannot be subjected to french social contributions on their investment income...."     **ie S1 holders

This makes no mention of where they are resident or indeed , where their investments are based.

Most of what is writtten on this subject is for an audience of french nationals .   

[Hereford]

Hi Parsnips

Our Avis primitif is available on the Impots website today.  Despite the fact that we quoted the Court ruling and asked that we not be charged Social contributions they have charged them as in previous years.

Any advice? I think we must appeal the decision, do we just write a letter - we have never had any problems or needed to appeal before- so not sure of the "form"?

Thanks for any tips.

H.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Hereford"]Hi Parsnips

Our Avis primitif is available on the Impots website today.  Despite the fact that we quoted the Court ruling and asked that we not be charged Social contributions they have charged them as in previous years.

Any advice? I think we must appeal the decision, do we just write a letter - we have never had any problems or needed to appeal before- so not sure of the "form"?

Thanks for any tips.

H.

[/quote]

Hi,

     The finance ministry has stated that the law is to be altered in future ( but like everything in France , it will take forever), and in the meantime people concerned should pay as usual , and then claim back by way of a "Reclamation Contensieuse".   I attach a model I prepared based on the claim I will be making forrevenue for  the years 2012,2013, and 2014;

Objet;  Réclamation   Contentieuse des Prélèvements Sociaux Indument pris sur mes Revenus de Capitaux Mobiliers  2012, 2013 et 2014.

Madame/ Monsieur,

Vu la jugement de la Cour de Justice Européen , Case  C-623/13, dans l'affaire « de Ruyter« ,et la décision du  Conseil d’Etat rendue le 17 avril 2015, ,  je vous prie de me rembourser les prélèvements indûment  pris sur les revenus ci-dessus cités.

Etant  titulaire de formulaire S1 (E121)(copie ci-jointe ) je ne suis affilié  ni au régime de retraite ni au régime de sante  français.  ( EU Reg. 1408/71), donc  tout imposition des prélèvements sociaux sur mes revenus de tout sortes n’est pas légale , selon la jugement ci-dessus citée.

Je vous prie de me restituer les  prélèvements  sociaux sur mes dividendes, produits d’assurance vie  et intérêts ci-dessous  énumérés:

 2013 -revenus de 2012 :

RCM actions  parts  et interets…(take from social contribution avis)..Z

                                                                                                  

Prélèvements  indûment  pris……………………………15.5% X Z =  …………………………   ?    (from avis)                                                          

                (send copy rélévés for all below)

                                                                                   

    Assurance Vie pris à la source ( voir copies); 

Company name ;  contrat …(reference)……….…………………………………….................... ?

      «                        contrat    (reference)………………………………..…………………......…....  ?

Prélevé  à la source  PELs and other taxable accounts

 Bank name (  reference)……………………………………………….............................……    ?                      

     Total social contributions indue prises sur les  revenus de 2012.……………….________

..........you should adapt this to fit your categories of income - don't miss the contributions taken at source like Assurance Vie and bank interest.

[Hereford]

You're a star Parsnips, thank you.  Will you send the reclamation letter for all three years now or wait a bit?

It is not a huge amount of money in our case - all on UK investment income - but the refund would always be welcome!

H.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Hereford"]You're a star Parsnips, thank you.  Will you send the reclamation letter for all three years now or wait a bit?

It is not a huge amount of money in our case - all on UK investment income - but the refund would always be welcome!

H.

[/quote]

Hi,

     I am sending all together under the first letter , with summaries for the other years.   I am sending a separate claim for 2011 income as I registered a "provisional" claim before the 31/12/2014 deadline; it will be interesting to see how that one does.

[Hereford]

Thanks a lot. Will do letter now.

H.

[Judith]

Thanks Parsnips,

You are indeed a star!  Been following this, but waiting. ... and guess what, our demand arrived today too - first time it has come with the last tranche of income tax demand, and hubby said, it's doubled ....

And so my questions:

1) To whom is the letter to be sent?

2) How far do we (or can we) go back?

3) Is there a deadline for claims?

Apologies if this is already answered during the post ... but all this will take some  time to co-ordinate and find, and time is not available just at present, so if it will wait for a short while, it would be helpful to know this.

Didn't help that in the same post came an HMRC letter for hubby saying he hasn't paid enough tax in the UK  ... but that one we can deal with once we've double checked their figures!!

Doesn't rain but it pours - c'est la vie!!

[parsnips]

[quote user="Judith"]Thanks Parsnips,

You are indeed a star!  Been following this, but waiting. ... and guess what, our demand arrived today too - first time it has come with the last tranche of income tax demand, and hubby said, it's doubled ....

And so my questions:

1) To whom is the letter to be sent?

2) How far do we (or can we) go back?

3) Is there a deadline for claims?

Apologies if this is already answered during the post ... but all this will take some  time to co-ordinate and find, and time is not available just at present, so if it will wait for a short while, it would be helpful to know this.

Didn't help that in the same post came an HMRC letter for hubby saying he hasn't paid enough tax in the UK  ... but that one we can deal with once we've double checked their figures!!

Doesn't rain but it pours - c'est la vie!!

[/quote]

Hi,

     Send to the address on the form 2042 you were sent to declare on (also shown on page 3 of the avis). Send copies of the avis for social charges. Quote your N° Fiscale (on 2042)

      You can claim back to 2013 (income of 2012) : the deadline for 2012 is 31/12/2015.

[Judith]

Many thanks, Parsnips.

Always helpful, as ever ... now go to go hunting for all the papers, but there is time if deadline is Dec!

[mrsblack]

Thanks Parsnips. I have read all the french docs. and the use of the future tense is reassuring but as to when the "will" becomes appled at local level.... I am following it all and will pay the sum asked but in the meantime I will prepare our claim. Thanks to all and what a help this forum is to us all. Sorry for any delay - first grandchild born on monday.

[CeeJay]

Emailed my local tax office on Monday regarding the avis for social charges that I had been levied for, for the last 2 years, although because they were less than 61 Euros were not collected. Had a reply back today informing me that a new amended tax demand would be sent out showing no social charges. Good result, even though I don't pay them because of the amount, but you never know, next year the interest rates could soar!!!!!!

[mint]

[quote user="CeeJay"]Emailed my local tax office on Monday regarding the avis for social charges that I had been levied for, for the last 2 years, although because they were less than 61 Euros were not collected. Had a reply back today informing me that a new amended tax demand would be sent out showing no social charges. Good result, even though I don't pay them because of the amount, but you never know, next year the interest rates could soar!!!!!!

[/quote]

Indeed, CeeJay, and pigs might fly?

Thank you for the info though.  Could you perhaps just give an indication of your département?  I'd love to be able to say but in such and such a département, they are doing this already?

I could just imagine the chap in our public finance office visibly bristling[:D]

[CeeJay]

Certainly Mint, it is Montpellier, of which I have had excellent service over the years and always communicated by email.

[mint]

Thanks, CeeJay, he should be impressed by Montpellier.  It's a town that would certainly dwarf ours and, in the event of any opposition, I'd say surely the people in Montpellier can be trusted to get this right? 

Ha, ha, ha, laughing already!

[Francophile]

The clue is probably in the title of this thread, but can somebody please confirm, on good authority, that it is only Investment Income that is exempt from Social Charges for holders of an S1?

Or, preferably, can somebody please confirm, on good authority, that income taxed under the Microbic regime (such as rental income from running a gîte) is similarly exempt?