Hoddy Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Something occurred to me while reading the “Justice” thread.My last faint illusions about sport have now been dashed – I’m more of the Chris pp school of thought myself – or I was.Then I wondered why is it that when people have insulted me they have done it straightforwardly. They have never sought to insult my father, husband, brother or son. Come to think of it they’ve never insulted my female relatives either.Is other women’s experience the same as mine ?Is it a certain sort of man who goes in for this sort of thing ? Is it confined to the football pitch and rap music ?What do you think ?Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Kids will fight over 'Your Mum'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Yes I've come across that one, Dick. Also when confronting parents with the misdemeanors of their children, or if complaints were made to me about my children, the hackles go up immediately. Straight into denial and not unknown to be followed by a punch on the nose. ( Not by me though.). Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I do think that asking this kind of question means you do not know alot about the world out there. Sorry if that sounds rude but life is alittle bit more than talking to the W.I and out there, is a world fullof folks enjoying sport of all kinds and in all pro sport there will bea degree of "sledging". One might not like it, I don't confess tomyself but I know why it happens and also why it is in Rap for theyoung peeps to offer their own kind of music. I supect Elvis never sat wellwith your parents !What you mean by a certain man is undefinable, any man who hits their thumb will swear, does he become a certain kind of manunless of course he is a true saint ! I haven't watched or played itbut my bet is that the demure ladies in international Hockey may wellget a bit in to a bit of baiting. Rugby and Cricket sees quite a bit ofit all, jockeys wind each other up, the list goes on and on and yes, itis more of way to get men wound up if the Mother is insulted, itmeans nothing in real terms and it is one up to the offender if theopposition player takes the bait...Like it or not, that's the way it isand I bet until Zidane came along, my guess is most people thought theplayers were always talking about the weather [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Miki I obviously haven’t explained myself very well.I was brought up with four brothers and my working life was spent with the army and in a tough multi cultural comprehensive school. Perhaps not the wide experience of the world that you have, but no less valid I think. I think I’ve heard all the swear words.It’s true that I’m not very interested in sport. I am interested in language and the point I was trying to make, obviously not clearly enough, was that no-one has ever tried to insult me by insulting my male relatives. I was wondering if anyone had tried to insult the other women on the forum by impugning their male relatives honour, physical attributes or whatever.Nothing to do with sport or the WI at all.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 You mean that women (and women's parts) are most frequently invoked in insults?Yes, I think that may be true, but there is a very healthy male contribution to the genre as well.The other point, about unsettling opponents with insults, is also true, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 So it's acceptable?Come on Miki, the fact that people behave badly doesn't make it OK. In my case it's nothing to do with having led a sheltered life, it just so happens that I don't gamble and haven't watched sport for a number of years and was therefore interested to have it confirmed that not only apparently is this the "norm" but that it is widely reckoned to be OK.Goes a long way toward making a better world - I think not!Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossumGirl Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hoddy, I don't think that women, in general, insult each other in roundabout ways; we tend to be far more personal when attacking each other. And, men don't attack our male relatives, probably because they don't find that particularly insulting. Maybe it has to do with the pedestal on which men put their own mothers/sisters? Or else, maybe they think their fathers can watch out for themselves?PG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 This is the sort of area I was musing in, Possumgirl. All the insults I've ever had have been direct - either for something I am, I've said or done. It just seems curious to me that we use language in this way. Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sorry Chris but by not accepting that insults have been a part of lifesince before Christ, if the stories are to be accepted and I have nodoubt, that although I am not religious, insults were not inventedyesterday then one has ones head, plonked firmly in the sand.What you call behaving badly may be just a child crying in the park andupsetting the calm of thew place, others may say it is yobs swearing,some may just think that everything is unacceptable. In all walks oflife there are the goodies and baddies and most people like topigeon hole themselves in the goodie category. Me, well I like to thinkI can accept most things in life, not all of course not and in therealm of it all, with terrible deaths from floods, famines,Tsunamis and the 101 things that are truly horrible, I look and accepta lot of living in the 21st century. Sport gives the world more hope,more excitement than probably anything else bar perhaps, the popindustry.So some sportsman cuss and swear, it is and always has been, anintegral part of it, OK it doesn't make the World a better place, whatdoes, do I, do you, does anyone. We try our best I'm sure but, none ofus give a millionth of the excitement and joy that these sportsman doand just singling out some for not adorning the world with wonderfulprose will therefore make the world a worse place makes me sad forfolks, who only see the parts they dislike and not the great humour,the thrill, the camraderie, the wnat to excel and sure if it meansoccasional cursing, occasional fouling etc and crossing the supposedacceptable line, that some people have drawn, then so be it, billionsworldwide love sport, for all it's wrongs, it has many more thousandrights.[quote] and was therefore interested to have it confirmed that not onlyapparently is this the "norm" but that it is widely reckoned to be OK.[/quote] Don't let facts get in the way eh Chris, care to back that all up and without the aid of a red top or two ! All this talk of a better world, is this a crusade you are on ? Let'sbe honest here, take away Sport and what would billions of folks havethen ? Or will you allow them sport only if they pledge to be goodiesonly, no swearing, no shirt tugging, no...well no nothing really just aUtopian vision which has never been there...EVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I think, to cut out all the unnecessary bits, it's the justification of insults, personal abuse and so on, by saying that it brings enjoyment to millions of people, without accepting that it is less than a good example for all the younger people that watch and read about it. Actually, I would say that it was a failure on the part of the people participating to behave like responsible adults. Of course, I know that the answer to that, is that they are not.But lets not justify it and go down the road of "well, the worlds like that and that we as individuals can't improve things"Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 1. Hoddy's threadYes I agree, you don't insult a woman by insulting her man or male relatives. I think that putting women on pillars comes into it somewhere, also the contrast between promiscuity being sluttishness in women and studdishness (?!) in men. Can you imagine trying to insult a woman by saying " your father had a lot on the side!"?2. Miki and Chris' threadWhen professionalism came in the door, sport went out the window. Can you imagine someone writing Stephen Potter's " Gamesmanship" now? Or anyone below the age of 30 finding it funny? On the other hand, the more we take this behaviour in sport to be normal or accept it, the more we condone and encourage it. Sometimes one has to both accept reality and at the same time try to challenge unacceptable behaviour if things are not to become even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 The method and nature of insults has to be as varied as class and culture is in this world. The Italian knew that to insult Zizous mother would get to him, it was the action of a sportsman at the top of his game and not achieving what he wanted to...not right but as Miki says it's just a part of sport. Sport is just vital to our children and to the world, it teaches all sorts of things. This world we live in is a competetive one, you have to fight hard to get anywhere and it all starts by learning how to compete, how to win and how to lose and how to pick yourself up again and try that bit harder when stuff doesn't go quite right. And the better you get and fitter you are the more you need to win and the higher the stakes get. Sport also taught me about excelling and that you have to work really hard to get there (if ever one does) and tomorrow I'll give 110% and I hope to win, if I don't I'll learn from it and win the day after. And if it all gets too much I'll be aiming some well chosen insults at various inanimate objects and then opening the Chablis!Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote] But lets not justify it and go down the road of "well,the worlds like that and that we as individuals can't improvethings"[/quote]But you are trying to make it appear so deadly and so infinitelyterrible. I used to have older players try to take my knees of in thelmid late 60's, through in to the 70's, question me about my parentsmarriage certificate and all kinds of phrases to get me to bite. We hadlessons even then, on how to avoid taking it all in and to simplyignore it and have NO doubt all, Master Rooney will be given manylessons in self management against anger and taking revenge but in the heat of the battle, red mist can descend on what appears to be the mildest of men (à la Zidane).No one is going down such a road, I like to think that I walkdown the reality road and that dreaming is more harmful than acceptingthat not everyone in this world is perfect and I say once again,what about if Sport was taken away from life, if more poeple with yourattitude want to ban it because of what they see as not right for usall ? Kathy, it is not just because Sport went Professional, sport has beenabout even longer than our eldest Forum member (whoever that may be !)and my Father, Uncles and Brother in laws used to tell me stories oftheir days in Amateur sport and what skulduggery & trickery went on! It is not about condoning it, UEFA, FIFA and the FA take severe stepsto try and keep soccer on an even keel. every now and again we getsomething like this Zidane affair, where mountains will be made of molehills. It is the way it has always been. Drugs in athletics cameas a shock, we all thought that only the Russian ladies were takingsteroids and we were proved correct...shock horror we have nowhad 100 metre champions (and others !!) bening banned for drug taking.We don't condone it, we accept it happens and we hope that thye will becaught. The same for 99% of sports. There are administarative bodiesthat do their best to regulate the sport and the journalists do theirbest to inflame little stories in to horror stories thus more papersget sold and folks talk eagerley of the new, shock horrorstory....oldest trick in the book eh ?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote user="Chris Head"]The method and nature of insults has to beas varied as class and culture is in this world. The Italian knew thatto insult Zizous mother would get to him, it was the action of asportsman at the top of his game and not achieving what he wantedto...not right but as Miki says it's just a part of sport. Sport isjust vital to our children and to the world, it teaches all sortsof things. This world we live in is a competetive one, you have tofight hard to get anywhere and it all starts by learning howto compete, how to win and how to lose and how to pick yourself upagain and try that bit harder when stuff doesn't go quite right. Andthe better you get and fitter you are the more you need to win and the higher the stakes get. Sport also taught me about excelling and that you have to work reallyhard to get there (if ever one does) and tomorrow I'll give110% and I hope to win, if I don't I'll learn from it and win theday after. And if it all gets too much I'll be aiming some well choseninsults at various inanimate objects and then opening the Chablis!Chris [/quote][:D] [:D][:D]Nice one Chris and bang on the button. I used to curse any time Iwas last in the training lap and had to do extra press ups, soonlearned to do better and the tricks required not to come last, werehanded down to me by the older lads ! Win or lose, went in the barafterwards for a pint though and have no fears, as you will know, thebest part is that most of the time, those you see cursing and tuggingshirts or whatever will all be in the bar afterwards, pressure nowoff, discussing the game and all having a chat mixed withfriendly banter..Gazzer to name but one well known soccer chap, hasalways said, the worse part of retiring is losing the after matchbanter and the involvement in the game. What most folks see is thegame, with all its warts and all and very few will see a lot of thereality afterwards.We read about venom in the papers of Ronaldo, now we hear thatRooney is not blaming him at all. He knows he was wrong and istaking it on the chin, as he should do. You can bet when two fine youngpros like those two get together, they will share a drink and have agrin, if not now, cetainly at sometime in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Let's get this straight, I never wrote anything about banning sport, read my words!Secondly, lot's of things happened in the 60's, 70's, 80's in fact in the past, that are no longer acceptable to society as a whole, insults, racial or any other type of abuse are not OK in my book whoever is using it and for whatever reason.I think that I have made my position clear.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote] Let's get this straight, I never wrote anything about banning sport, read my words![/quote]Oh I read them alright............... and wept !! Read my text, no onesaid you did . Mine was just an example that if people like you gomoaning and groaning constantly about what happens in sport, what didyouthink would happen if it was banned to make people like you happy ![quote] Secondly, lot's of things happened in the 60's, 70's, 80's in fact inthe past, that are no longer acceptable to society as a whole, insults,racial or any other type of abuse are not OK in my book whoever isusing it and for whatever reason.[/quote]So now we get the illogical response ! It's totally ridiculous to usewhat has happened recently to say things are not acceptable. Sorry butyou are proving yourself tobe some kind of a perfectionist andthat is impossible to achieve. All it does, is give the World grumpyfolks who just want it all to be so, so. Sport has moved on since the60's in racism and by your own admission you know sweet FA on the sportscore but as ever, that won't stop some folks from giving an opinionabout something they really haven't got a clue about. . Insults !Jeepers, even today after decades, Mums are still telling kids aboutsticks and stones may etc ets, As Chris H has said, it is not a perfectWorld we have to compete in whatever we do and with that, it bringshard competition, take that away and we are left with a rather drabworld, no doubt you may prefer that. Because for sure, where stress andcompetition is found, all manner of ways to gain an advantage will beused, some a little more hard to accept than others but I say to you,you know nothing of the world of Sport and how quickly all is forgottenafter the "whistle blows" and the after match banter....but still, youcan see all you want by reading the jolly old tabloids !I have little or no time for people who dream of what should be.. I ama realist, I detest racism, I don't like unnecessary swearing butI know these things happen, I don't condone it all, simplybecause I realise it happens every day in every town, village andcountry in the World but I have to rely on the authorities to deal withit and in the mean time I shall enjoy Sport, including all it throws atme and again, that is not condoning it, it is simply being real. Isuggest you take a course in accepting the World will never be theperfect object you think it should be and get on and make the best ofwhat is available.Placing yourself to be the high and mighty Mr Good Guy by just tryingto make those sportsman out to be the centre of the Worlds racial andother problems is totally wrong. I'll say it again, as it has not gotthrough. The pro sportsmen of this World give hope and joy tobillions of people, they are not perfect human beings, as you intimateyou are and how they come across does not always please the purists ofthis World but in many cases, they are giving 110% and in that puttheir bodies through hardship and yes, they may say things they regretlater but my estimate is that 99% of any insults are motivated only bytheir hope to gain any advantage possible. Can I respectfully suggestyou keep away from Sport and enjoy life away from all thoseterrible specimens ! For my part, I have found far, far more genuinefriends through Sport (mainly football) than through any other manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Katie Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women. You see male friends bantering each other so close the the bone. If two women ever went that close they would soon be called b itches. Most couldnt take it off one another anyway.You see men on the rugby pitch. Can you imagine as a woman running with a ball and another one comes and slams you in the face which is part of the game. Most woman would either totally lose her head or run in the changing rooms crying and refuse to come out.Some of our local games (which I never attend by the way) turn into free for all wrestling matches. I say to my husband "Why to they do that"? He says in his Welsh accent "Great Mun, Gets all the aggresiveness out of ewe." Then I ask if they fight in the changing rooms later and he says "Eff Off, We all go in ere an sing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris pp Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Thanks for taking the time to formulate your lengthy reply Miki, but as I wrote, I think that I have made my position clear.Just my point of view, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWINKLE Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote user="KatieKopyKat"] "Eff Off, We all go in ere an sing" [/quote]And offer to scrub each others backs[;-)] Yeah, I remember that rugby club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote]Some of our local games (which I never attend by the way)turn into free for all wrestling matches. I say to my husband"Why to they do that"? He says in his Welsh accent "Great Mun,Gets all the aggresiveness out of ewe." Then I ask if they fightin the changing rooms later and he says "Eff Off, We all go inere an sing" [/quote][:D] [:D] [:D]And transfer that kind of thing to the Pro game Katie and there youhave it. We always used to say and I'm pretty sure your husband would know the samesaying "What happens on the pitch stays on the pitch" and then all have agood banter in the bar.Sorry Chris I know you have said what you have but I am reallymystified that you cannot see it as it really is and somehow think thatblasphemy and racism are what sports are all about ! Ah well, none sodeaf as them that can't see.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 KKK wrote, Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women. "That is not at all what I was saying.I intended this thread to be a discussion about language and not about sport. It's now just a continuation of the Justice thread. Good job I put it in the Lounge. Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresco Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hoddy, there has to be a link to Catholicism somewhere. Another poster touched on this - the mother-worship thingI bet the more 'Protestant' countries footballers don't go in for all this mother insulting business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [quote user="Hoddy"]KKK wrote, Hoddy, you are quite right, the insult thing does not usually go on between women. " That is not at all what I was saying. I intended this thread to be a discussion about language and not about sport. It's now just a continuation of the Justice thread. Good job I put it in the Lounge. Hoddy[/quote]Well I tried to join in your part of the discussion, Hoddy, but it looks like I'm invisible again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 I'm sorry KathyC - and thanks for trying to respond. I just feel it's all got lost now. Maybe I'll try another day.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.