Missy Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 and as it is 13th October 2006 :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/6047026.stm Vive l' Entente Cordiale ! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 No mention in the BBC story of Harold of Wessex's journey to visit William and his swearing allegiance to him at Edward's behest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Under duress, matey, under duress - it didn't count!Actually, no mention of anything very much in the BBC story - the usual minimal research. Harold was NOT killed with an arrow in the eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The victor writes the history - hence Harold died as a perjurer. I guess further hence the arrow in eye story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Even the tapestry doesn't claim that Haraold took the oath freely - and several Norman commentators mention it as well (pushed to remember who at the moment, though).It wasn't just that he was under duress, he was tricked as he thought the oath was relatively minor and then found out that he had taken it over the bones of saints - sneakiness by William which was approved of! That is why the Pope became involved and gave his blessing to William's invasion. The actual terms of the oath are, however, pretty vague, and may mean that Harold would rule England as under-king for William as he had done for Edward. It was the Anglo-Danish party in the Witan which seem to have persuaded him to take the crown himsel in January 1066. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The tapestry does show Harold making the oath under duress - in factthe whole thing is a bit of a rum tale. Doesn't it also say that Edpromised Will would be his successor, some years before his death? The old arrow in the eye myth was something to do with this being a punishment for perjury, I vaguely recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The story as told by the English was that Edward, on his deathbed, commended his wife (Harold's sister) and England into his care. The Danish party in the Witanagemot took this as meaning that he passed the crown on to Harold. This, however, is a red herring, as the crown of England wa not then hereditary but elective, so the Witan elected Harold. The English point of view would therefore be that if Harold had promised the throne to William - even on behalf of Edward - he would have been exceeding his authority.I am always amazed that Shakespeare never wrote a tragedy around this story - but perhaps he thought he had covered the period with Macbeth.As for the arrow in the eye - no source written before the tapestry was displayed mentions it. Harold's brother (Leofwine, I think) was killed by an arrow in the eye, which complicates things.At the time of Harold's death the English shield-wall was effectively broken by an arrow-storm, and the figure with the arrow in his eye is probably meant to depict a wounded housecarl. To believe it is Harold the tapestry designer would have had to have drawn a character standing next to himself (which happens nowhere else in the work) and would have had to have been dumb enough to have the same man standing next to himself wearing different clothing. Not likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Maybe, even in those days, the England team changed strips at half time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Only the Percys and the Stanleys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 [quote user="Dick Smith"]As for the arrow in the eye - nosource written before the tapestry was displayed mentions it. Harold'sbrother (Leofwine, I think) was killed by an arrow in the eye, whichcomplicates things.[/quote]Sooooo....how was he killed then? Was it in any way in an interestingmanner, or was he just hacked into hamburger, as seems to have been thecase with so many participants in such family get togethers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Nastily!The Carmen de Hastingae Proelia (possibly written 1068) says:"[William] called Eustace to him; leaving the conflict in that place to the French, he brought strong aid to those hard pressed. Like a second son of Hector, Hugh, the noble heir of Ponthieu, escorted these two, prompt in service; fourth was Giffard, known by his father's surname: these four bore arms for the destruction of the king. Yet there were many others? These were better than the rest! If anyone doubts this, the true course of the action proves it, for by measureless slaughter Harold was forcing the masters of the field to go the way of (all) flesh. The first, cleaving his breast through the shield with his point, drenched the earth with a gushing torrent of blood; the second smote off his head below the protection of the helmet and the third pierced the inwards of his belly with his lance; the fourth hewed off his thigh and bore away the severed limb: the ground held the body thus destroyed."After the battle Harold's body was identified by Edith the Swan-Necked, his common-law wife, by 'secret marks' on his body - in fact her name tattooed on his chest. It may have been that his head was not cut off, but his face was sliced off by the sword blow.Interestingly, a body of about the right period has been found in Bosham (a manor of Harold's) of a middle-aged man with a leg missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 So do you think that those injuries would have been sufficient to kill Harold? YoursLord Henri de Percy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I think they would have spoiled his whole day, certainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Head Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Mind if I lower the tone a little?Looks pretty painful to me!I think the armourer made rather a serious error in his choice of weaponry that day, an M16 would have kept them out of range of the arrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thibault Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Isn't there a legend that Harold was buried on the cliffs to guard England forever?Wasn't he in fact buried at Waltham Abbey?I thought the Church authorities had refused to allow investigation of the body buried in Bosham Church and therefore there is no proof it is Harold. However, susposedly, there is a daughter of Canute buried there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 All 'true' - but the body at Bosham has been exhumed and examined in the past: it is a further exhumation which is refused. Bosham makes sense as it was a favoured manor of the Godwinssons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Classy kind of guy then, what with his girlfriend's name tattooed onhis chest. Mind you, I've just waded through a history of the HundredYears War, and it seems that most nobility then were basically footballhologans with titles, so I can't imagine that the 11th century was muchbetter. Henry V seems to have been amongst the worst of them, forexample allowing the elderly, infirm, women and children evicted fromRouen during the seige to starve and freeze to death in the city's moatrather than let them past. Charming - and Shakspeare made him out to besuch a decent chap.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted October 15, 2006 Author Share Posted October 15, 2006 >>>Classy kind of guy then, what with his girlfriend's name tattooed on his chest<<<Since then, in his honour! possibly 90% of the British military new recruits have their girlfriends names tatooed! Only that in case of the same fate as Harold (but with more modern weapons) there can be confusion at the morgue for identification.... I imagine the pathologist : Oh Dear who should we phone?... Sharon?... Tracy?... Chardonnay?... Chantelle?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Think Mafiosi and you don't go far wrong. Apparently Harold had 'England' tattooed on his chest as well, but I find that a bit hard to swallow. Once upon a time it was postulated that the 'secret signs' were tattoos which showed that he was a follower of the Cult of Odin, but that is also pretty unlikely given the amount of time and money he gave to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 [quote user="missyesbut"]>>>Classy kind of guy then, what with his girlfriend's name tattooed on his chest<<<Since then, in his honour! possibly 90% of the British military new recruits have their girlfriends names tatooed! Only that in case of the same fate as Harold (but with more modern weapons) there can be confusion at the morgue for identification.... I imagine the pathologist : Oh Dear who should we phone?... Sharon?... Tracy?... Chardonnay?... Chantelle?....[/quote]Possibly amusing but a bit short on sensitivity at this time with numbers of British Military casualties around the globe.Soldiers are identified by their comrades in the field, the Unit Officers tell the the next of kin.Maybe I'm touchy on the subject but with family in the Army its a sore point.[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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