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Tax Query - Marriage


stan

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After handing in our first tax return recently to the local tax office and having it checked as being ok, I have today received a letter stating that my wife should submit her tax return details separately. The reason for this, I suspect, is that on the form 2024, I put the date of our marriage as being the day last year when we signed for the house at the Notaire`s and added a French marital contract, as I thought that that date would be the relevant one for tax purposes.

We have actually been married for several years, so possibly I was wrong to add that particular date on the tax return and should have consulted this forum!!!

Also, what relevance to the tax authorities here in France is my wife`s tax affairs, PRIOR to moving here in May last year and being resident in France?

What would be the best course of action here......1) going to the tax office with our UK marriage certificate as proof that we have been married for several years, a copy of the Notaire`s marital contract which waa drawn up for us and signed on the date stated last year, as well as an explanation of why I put the worng date down OR have my wife fill in a seperate tax return for the period prior to the date we arrived here last year? (ie 1/1/10 - May 2010), although I do not see what relevance this has to the tax office.

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Married couples do a joint return  in France, she should not be doing a separate return. The french are not interested in tax/income prior to your moving to France. I would go to the tax office in person and ask for help.

What possessed you to put the wrong date down? Why did the notaire go along with it? Very strange.

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Married couples do a joint return in France, from the date of the marriage. 

As the tax authorities think that you were only married last year, they would expect a separate return from both you and your wife to cover the period up to the marriage, and a joint return for the period afterwards.

I know this 'cos I tied the knot myself last year, and we've just done our first joint return [:$]

I think you may need to "confess" your mistake.

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Oh then it gets complicated as a sort of judgement is made as to the whereabouts of the  'family' residence. I believe that all world wide income would or could have to be declared in France, if it is decided that France is the family 'home'.
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[quote user="idun"]

Married couples do a joint return  in France, she should not be doing a separate return. The french are not interested in tax/income prior to your moving to France. I would go to the tax office in person and ask for help.

What possessed you to put the wrong date down? Why did the notaire go along with it? Very strange.

[/quote]

The date I put down was the date of the French marriage contract that the Notaire suggested was best for us as joint owners of the property we had just bought. The contract was done at the same time we signed for the property in his office. I think I misunderstood what he had said regarding tax and I thought this was the date I had to put on the form as there was a bit of a joke in his office at the time as us having to be married again! In summary, the date of the marriage contract was the same date we began living here permanently.

I still do not know why the tax office wish details of our income etc for a period that we were not resident in France (ie before the day we signed for the property in the Notaires office and have lived here permanently ever since.

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I do hope that this notaire has advised you well about changing your marriage regime, especially if you have kids.

Seems all very odd to me, and why would a notaire mention income tax.

 

Just go in to the tax office and start with de m'excuse and then get them to sort it all out, and take all your documents including original wedding certificate. AND if they want it officially translating, as we had to, well, just do it, it makes life easier.

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[quote user="Rabbie"]What happens if only one of you is tax resident in France?[/quote]

As stated, you still have to do a joint return, declaring all of the couple's worldwide income. Tax paid elsewhere by the non-resident spouse is, in  effect, credited against your joint French tax liability, under the terms of whatever double taxation arrangements may apply. But your French taxation band is determined by your joint worldwide income so you could still end up with a fairly large French tax bill if you have income from both France and elsewhere.

I know this to be correct, because we were in that situation for a number of years. And, having suffered a French tax audit, I can assure you that they most definitely are interested in every penny of your income from outside France.

Go along with Idun's advice. The change of marriage regime was seen as the best way to deal with French inheritance a few years ago, but under current law most of the attractions have evaporated. It may be the best answer for you - everybody's situation is different.

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[quote user="Rabbie"]What happens if only one of you is tax resident in France?[/quote]

Hi,

There are circumstances where a UK couple might be treated separately. This arises  where the couple are married under the "separation des biens"-the normal UK regime, and have distinct and longterm "domiciles" (here in the french sense);

examples -a couple living in separate departments for professional

reasons, in which case they do not have to be estranged and the law

accepts regular "periodique sejours" of the one with the other.

References--CE 19.12.07, n°291.849   ,CE 2.6.89, n°63.600,   CE

25.4.03,n°181.719.

     In the case of the couple, of whom one  is fiscally resident in the

UK,it would follow that  only the french resident spouse would be required to declare their

personal income in France.

They might have to be prepared to argue their case at the Tribunal Administratif" or via the "Conciliateur Fiscal".

 .   

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Parsnips - from personal experience, the French tax man only applies that rule for couples who are both primarily French tax resident but living apart, as you say for professional reasons rather than legal separation. I have been assured it does not apply if you are resident in different countries. Otherwise we could most likely have saved a few thousand euros over the years.

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[quote user="Will"]Parsnips - from personal experience, the French tax man only applies that rule for couples who are both primarily French tax resident but living apart, as you say for professional reasons rather than legal separation. I have been assured it does not apply if you are resident in different countries. Otherwise we could most likely have saved a few thousand euros over the years.

[/quote]

Hi,

      At the time of your difficuties with the tax office, did you take your case to the "Conciliateur Fiscal" or "Tribunal Administratif"?  In unusual cases it is not unknown for local tax offices to make mistakes , which they usually deny and defend ferociously, so as not to lose face. 

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The information came from our accountant and was confirmed with the local tax office. We never quite reached the stage of tribunals or the conciliateur fiscal during our investigation, though it looked likely it might progress that far at one stage. If anybody wants to test the ruling with the conciliateur I wish them all the best, though it's probably too late for us.

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[quote user="Will"]The information came from our accountant and was confirmed with the local tax office. We never quite reached the stage of tribunals or the conciliateur fiscal during our investigation, though it looked likely it might progress that far at one stage. If anybody wants to test the ruling with the conciliateur I wish them all the best, though it's probably too late for us.

[/quote]

Hi,

     If anybody is in dispute with their local tax office there are two FREE routes to getting a decision from a higher authority. The first is to assemble all the paperwork (that's why it is always best to deal with your tax office by letter or email) and send with a covering letter setting out your problem to the "Conciliateur Fiscal" for your department.     Expect to wait about 2 months for a decision.     If the "Conciliateur " finds against you you can still take it up with your local "Tribunal Administratif" (basically you send 4 copies of everything to the tribunal--google the full procedure).  I have used both systems with success.   (You can go straight to the tribunal if you choose).    Part of the procedure is for the relevant authority to ask the tax office for an explanation of their decision.    In 2 cases (tribunal) which I handled for friends, the tax office immediately caved in at that point, refunded the tax, and told the tribunal that there was now no case to answer.      I think that a tribunal or conciliateur ruling against them is felt to be a big black mark for a french foncionnaire. 

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  • 5 years later...
Hi stan,

I experienced the same situation few years ago with my wife though I always heard marriage offers many tax advantages. What matters most is the way we send our returns either jointly or as married filing separately. Both of them are acceptable but I do not understand they insist on separating your returns. At that time, my wife has large medical bills that's why they went on separating our returns, rules and procedures in tax audit in France are very strict indeed.

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to the OP: I rather doubt the tax office needs details of your wife's income before you were living in France. It is just that they know you came to live here on the date you gave but, from their point of view, what about her!! Once you have explained your error in the date it will all be fine.

If not come back and someone will help.

The French change their marriage regime too so the tax office will know what you are talking about.

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