Am I the only Cynic in the Village?

[Gastines]

Whilst I watch the Iranian crisis growing at an alarming rate into a potential Iraq,part 2. Am I the only person who thinks this is amazing like a put up job and amazingly convenient for UK and USA politicians.Perhaps that should read script writers. It would appear very odd that the female sailor interviewed a few days before by the BBC, just happened to be on the inflatable boat intercepted by the Iranians. Sympathy vote perhaps? As of yet I haven't noted what her job actually was. The fact that they ; the sailors interviewed ;all seem to act as if is a bit of a laugh I find not very professional if they are representing the R.N. and the U.K. I don't doubt  for one minute that it is not all sunshine and roses to be the centre of world wide media attention but that attention must surely secure their safety and humanitarian treatment. I wonder where it will lead us, as we are surely being led. It seems it's beyond the worlds politicians to deal with the real crises, and that includes the powers that be in the countries concerned eg. Somalia/Darfur/Zimbabwe etc etc.  It seems every thing revolves around power & money.  I sometimes wish I didn't think and when I think, I come to the conclusion that I must try and look after my own as no one else is going to. 

Members views on the subject appreciated.

[Dick Smith]

The problem with weaving conspiracy theories is that they distract you from a real understanding of the issues involved.

The sailors were taken without the knowledge of either the UK or US governments. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary. A simple assertion might as well include Martians or mermen.

The sailors have been physically well treated. They will not have any knowledge of how this is playing in the outside world. They will have been given assurances by their captors who want them to look relaxed in the propaganda videos.

Coincidences do happen, or alternatively the Iranians chose to pick up this patrol boat because there was a female sailor aboard. British sailors were chosen because the UK will react more subtly than the USA and a diplomatic resolution will be found. This will be a compromise - see below.

Yes we are being led, we are being led into Iran getting some concessions for letting the sailors go.

Of course everything revolves around power, and to a lesser extent, money. When didn't it?

[WJT]

My view as you requested being a forum member is that this is a very sick post in very bad taste, beyond belief. [:@]

[Renaud]

Gastimes - nice try, but not really.

What worries me is that our servicemen and women do not seem to have clear instructions or terms of engagement or reference.

The half-assed way we went back into Afganistan, seemingly with no clear mission is symtomatic.

Our troops have ended up fighting the Taliban night and day but not alongside the German troops who are not permitted out of their base at night, and Dutch troops who can only travel if their convoy has UK troops in front and as readguard.

Those who order troops into battle should think long and clearly before giving the orders.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Exit strategy for the UK in Iraq and Afghanistan seems to be that of the Ox and Bucks LI at Arnhem - hold until relieved and if the relief doesn't arrive (their's did, relieved by Lovat's Commandos), just hang on in there, at least we can see the flag draped coffins being returned here, in the USA that's now been banned.

And that nice Dr Reid, when Minister of Defence and deploying UK troops to Afghanistan, said that it was unlikely that any British troops would hear a shot fired in anger ........

PRAT!

[fulcrum]

I suppose no one reads their history anymore. My father knew the people of Waziristan very well, from his time there in the thirties. He told me that they were very fierce fighters that made him quite scared on occasion. When the Soviets went in there in the eighties, he said "you know, they wont last". They didn't.

[Gastines]

To WJT. I was expressing an opinion,hopefully I may,or will be, proved wrong.  I suppose that the USA having a fleet in the gulf at this moment,with Nimitz on the way,an operation that was obviously planned some months ago,was also a coincidence?

I think in future I had better keep my thoughts to myself and refrain from posting.

Regards

[Tony F Dordogne]

In the Victorian era Afghanistan and eastern Persia was the 'Great Game', the place where all the major powers wanted to get their foot in the door for strategic and political reasons.  My old Dad was on the NW Frontier in the late 1930s and he told me that it was a nightmare, just reiterating what I had already read about fighting the tribesmen in the previous centuries.

Something about learning from history or repeating the mistakes of the past comes to mind ..................

[Bugsy]

To give my opinion on the original post, I don't think it was 'engineered'. It was an incident that happened, simply that. What happened after just seems to be the norm these days (Winston would turn over in his grave if he witnessed the namby-pamby pussy-footing around thats gone on since).

I really don't know why those sailors were allowed to be captured. They (the iranians) should have been warned and if they failed to back-off, simply blown out of the water, assuming, of course that the warship had any live ammunition on board.

What we have now is the same situation as we have with Bin Laden and his boys. These people revell in the fact that there is so much PC in the western world that they can do just about anything that they want to. Who'se winning the 'war on terror', they are. Why, because western nations stick to these stupid PC rules.

Want an example, the war in Afghanistan. Have you ever wondered why the opium poppy fields are left intact, when that same opium is financing the Taliban and being sold on western union streets and destroying the lives of so many people, PC Politics.

The terrorists see negotiation and consultation as weakness. What they understand and, in my opinion, need are some well-placed bullets. Does anyone really believe that Bin Laden could not be removed, if the US government really set their mind to it, of course he could. It just suits their purpose very well to have him still running around.

As I said at the start, just my opinion.

[fulcrum]

Bugbear

I have to agree.

I saw some footage the other day where there were "Yellow ribbons" hung out on a building for the return of our naval personel. This is definitely PC gone mad.

As I posted on another thread. What on earth were the rest of the fleet doing whilst these unfortunate crew members were inspecting the cargo ship and then getting taken hostage.

[Deimos]

I commented in a different thread - but that one was just starting to turn into a bun fight.

Certainly I hope the RN people will be released quickly and without trials/humiliation/etc.

Without doubt there are loads of possible conspiracy theories possible. However, without evidence assuming such things in not really constructive. Undoubtedly it gives our (and their) politicians loads of opportunities to posture (like those animals you see in the wildlife documentaries strutting around eyeing each other up). All good opportunities for tough talk on both sides.

What does seem totally daft is, given the UK's public attitude re: Iran's nuclear arms/power program, why were these people stopping vessels so close to a disputed border. Does seem a bit like inviting the situation (a bit like withdrawing the navy from the Southern Atlantic and guess what happened then !).

And through it all our politicians sit safely at home getting all the good PR they can from their tough talk whilst the real innocent people are being held captive.

Ian

[Alan Zoff]

As so often seems to be the outcome when conspiracy theories are properly investigated, this situation no doubt arose through incompetence rather than some devious plan. Well that's my guess, anyway.

[Dick Smith]

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be more easily explained by incompetence."

N Bonaparte, I think.

[Chris Head]

The whole thing is just nonsence, SF know the exact location of our chaps, the plan is in place and they could be out with the click of a finger, the worrying thing is that Iran might be seeking to flex muscle and challenging proliferation so soon after gaining nuke capability. Get the chaps in and get them out...soonest!

[Tag]

To bring it all down to earth, wasn't the woman driving?

[Deimos]

I see on the news today that it is actually possible that the 15 concerned had entered Iranian waters. Seems that the border is defined by the projection of the "centre line" of the waterway and that the mud/sand banks are continually moving. The UK navy charts of the mud/sand banks appear to be based on 1970 positions (from memory anyway) and things may have changed quite a bit since then.

Ian

[MrCanary]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

And that nice Dr Reid, when Minister of Defence and deploying UK troops to Afghanistan, said that it was unlikely that any British troops would hear a shot fired in anger ........

PRAT!

[/quote]

Oh dear, yes Tony, he really is. This utility politician, Reid, underlines why we desperately need a change of government. Trouble is though, the opposition do not really inspire, do they? 

[Pierre ZFP]

So what happened to only giving 'Name, Rank and Number' ?  This lot seem to be giving chat show interviews.  It just looks so much like a put-up job.

As for opposition possibilites, I still like Charles Kennedy regardless of any drink problem he had, better than Ming the Merciless.

[Dick Smith]

Of course it's a put-up job - the sailors and marines are being used for Iranian propaganda! Unless you think that, like the moon landings it is being filmed on a stage set somewhere in the Home Counties...

They will have been trained to say whatever is necessary to keep themselves safe and get out of the situation. If that means complying with Iranian instructions, then it is done.

Remember that these are not prisoners of war - they are, I suppose, civilian detainees being investigated for border violations.

[Coco]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]They will have been trained to say whatever is necessary to keep themselves safe and get out of the situation. If that means complying with Iranian instructions, then it is done.


[/quote]

I thought they hadn't been given any training at all.  The MODs belief being that RAF need the taining in case their personnel are downed in enemy territory but navy personnel are unlikely to be captured!

[Dick Smith]

They get a half-day in basic training or some such - I saw it on TV yesterday.

But they are in a cleft stick. They aren't revealing secret information, as far as we know. The Geneva Conventions weren't created for this situation, but they do say that prisoners of war can't be 'paraded'. But as no state of war against Iran exists, they aren't POWs!

[Alan Zoff]

They carelessly stumbled over some imaginary line, the "mother ship" was caught napping and the Iranian government is exploiting it for all it is worth.

Governments have always looked to increase popular support by putting one over on another power. Galtieri thought Las Malvinas would be his saviour; instead they turned about to be Maggie's. People have a tendency to vote for winners, however disgusting they may be. 

[TreizeVents]

A friend sent me these links today.  They were designed to make me re-examine what I thought.  They succeeded.  Any of you find them interesting or challenging.  I thought things were simple.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2047128,00.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2412764.ece

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/index.html

the articles of 2 April, 29,30 31 March are relevant

[WJT]

Sorry TV, couldn't get past most of the first article. I guess there are times when you may have to treat someone differently when they threaten to blow themselves up. I am not condoning anything just an observation. Not sure if Iran would worry about the British captives wanting to harm themselves and others at the same time.

[Gastines]

Been in UK for a couple of days and just catching up. Well aware that I promised not to post on anymore subjects but hope I may be allowed one follow up. As of today no mention has been made of the lady sailor  as to what her actual position/job is. I still wonder why she was on the boat? As pointed out by other posters, the entire crew and captain  of the command ship must have been asleep while all this was going on. They must have expressed the same astonishment as  when Saddam's entire army managed to assemble at Kuwaits border unseen by the numerous satellites and ground observers. Who? What? How? Oh dear, we must have missed watching that bit. I don't think so. It all smells.

Regards.