Government pension on tax form 2047

[Graham & Brenda]

I have completed this for the first time for my wife's Teacher's Pension. I have completed section 1 and then under section 7 I have put the amount before and after tax as the same. There was no tax to pay as the personal allowance was greater than the pension amount. I assume and hope that as no tax was paid in the UK there will still be no French tax to pay (in effect the tax due was offset by the personal allowance).

Am I correct in this assumption please?

Thanks,

[minnie]

Personal allowances are somewhat similar (don't recall the exact figures without looking). The main difference is that your tax form in France is based on family income and not individual with personal allowances in 2 parts for husband and wife. So tax is calculated on the family income and then parts deducted to arrive at taxable income.

[Graham & Brenda]

Thanks for the reply. I understand about family income. However, the question is specifically about the treatment of pension reporting on form 2047, where it is split between the type taxed in France e.g. private pension and that which is taxed in England e.g. retired teachers.

[suein56]

Graham & Brenda wrote : Am I correct in this assumption please?

No, not quite. The section to put your wife's teaching pension is n° 6, not n° 7.

This way your global income is taken into account for the calculation of your French tax rate .. and then your household receives a credit equal to what you would have paid in French tax on that income.

The pension's value then reported to 8TK on form 2042.

[Graham & Brenda]

Thanks. I'll change it to section 6

[BritinBretagne]

You fill in the gross income. There is no place to fill in the amount after tax.

[pomme]

Online

You put the totals of your government, state and private pensions in 2047 section 1.11 (and tick the appropriate boxes) You split the figures you have put in 2047 section 1.11 and Government pensions are reported 1AL and 1BL and State and private pensions are reported in 1AM and 1BM

You also put your government pension in 2047 section 6 which carries over to 2042 section 8TK

[Graham & Brenda]

Thanks for all the replies - all sorted now.

[Manon]

Dear Pomme,

Your post is very clear and very helpful so I’m hoping you might be able to answer an extra query for me. Last year I also had to enter a pension figure on form 2047 in section 9 box 8tv and I can’t remember / work out how that figure was arrived at - the lady at our tax office worked it out last year. We have mainly private pensions but one public one - we are both early retirees. Can you help ? Thank you.

[pomme]

If you are an early retiree and without an S1 then you could be liable to pay CSG etc. on your revenue.

There is a description on p270 in Brochure IR Pratique 2018 http://tinyurl.com/yc9csc7j

Si vous êtes fiscalement domicilié en France et affilié à un régime français obligatoire de sécurité sociale, vos revenus d'activité et de remplacement de source étrangère sont imposables à la CSG et à la CRDS, sous réserve de l'application des conventions internationales.

Il s'agit notamment des pensions de source étrangère ou, si ces contributions sociales n'ont pas été précomptées par l'employeur, des salaires de source étrangère.

La CSG et la CRDS sur ces revenus d'activité et de remplacement de source étrangère sont calculées en appliquant les règles d'assiette et de taux prévues par la législation sociale mais elles sont recouvrées par voie de rôle comme la CSG sur les revenus du patrimoine. En outre, depuis le 1.1.2015, les pensions de retraite et d'invalidité et les allocations de préretraite soumises au taux normal de CSG (6,6 % ou 7,5 % pour les préretraites ayant pris effet à compter du 11.10.2007) sont soumises à la contribution additionnelle “solidarité autonomie” (CASA).

Presumably you are paying PUMA for health cover? If yes, I think (since it says "et affilié à un régime français obligatoire de sécurité sociale"):

In Section 9 on the 8TV line you need to put in the gross total of your non-government (private) pensions (which should be the total of 2042 1AM/1BM)

You also ought to be declaring your public/government pension in section 6 (and 8TK on 2042) to avoid double taxation (which should be the total of 2042 1AL/1BL)

Does that check with the figures on your forms for last year?

If you are not paying into the French health system/PUMA it would seem you should not be declaring in section 9, since you are not affiliated, but perhaps you ought to check with the tax office again?

[Daft Doctor]

A couple of observations. Firstly, as per the OP's first entry in the thread, there is sometimes confusion over whether a net or gross figure should be entered on form 2047 in respect of income wholly taxable in the UK (UK property income or 'government' pensions mainly). For the purposes of relief from French tax under the dual tax treaty, the relevant point is only that such income is taxable in the UK, not that it has in fact been taxed or will lead to a future tax payment (UK tax allowances and other reliefs might mean no tax is paid). For that reason, it is the gross in euros which should always be entered, exactly in the manner described very clearly above. What I would also say is that for the purposes of the dual tax treaty, this type of income is exempt from social charges, so any such charges added on the avis d'impot should be then clearly reversed. Please check this, as both I and some others I know with UK property income have had to point out the error the the French tax authorities when social charges have been levied but then not deducted.

Secondly, as I have a non-government UK pension which is wholly taxable in France, and as I am an early retiree, I pay CSG/CRDS/CASA on it at the going rate. In years past, a proportion of the CSG paid in any year has then been automatically added to my return as a deduction in box 6DE on the following years 2042, leading to an associated reduction in French income tax payable. This year however, it is a bit more complicated. On my 2017 Avis d'impot, the 'CSG deductible' in 2018 was split, one part on french savings interest (treated as per above on 2042), the rest however is labelled 'Montant de CSG déductible des revenus de source étrangère au titre des revenus perçus en 2017'

It took me quite a while to find out what to do about this amount of CSG relief, as there is no specific box on either 2047 or 2042 to enter it. Eventually I found Form 2041-GG 2018 (available on impots.gouv.fr or via google) to work out what to do. My interpretation of 2041-GG is that the CSG deductible from foreign income should be subtracted from (in my case) my gross pension income and the result entered in 1.11 of 2047 and 1AM of 2042. The CSG relief deducted should then be added back in, before entering the total amount in 8TV of 2042, since the relief from last years CSG is only available against income tax and not on social charges. I would advise anyone who has foreign income on which they pay CSG to check last year's Avis d'impot, and if as in my case the CSG deductible has been split, look up 2041-GG and act accordingly so not to lose the relief.

[Manon]

Thank you Pomme - yes, this does explain the figure on last year’s return, and yes, I am paying into PUMA. Very helpful thank you !