Data Protection

[Gardian]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Gardian"]

I'll return to the point that I was trying to make.

[/quote]

Gardian, in my reply to your initial post I asked why you thought ID cards were such a good idea, could you please return to that aspect and give us your justification.
[/quote]

Because I think that it would be a step forward security-wise. Not perfect, by any means, but better than where we are now. Oh and incidentally, a good deal more helpful than your view:

"I know who I am, if I tell you who I am and you dont believe me then prove I am wrong."

Fatuous?

For me, if ID cards were never introduced in the UK, I wouldn't lose any sleep. What irritates me though and what started me off on this thread, is the outpouring of grief and emotional claims of the loss of civil liberty that all will suffer, if such a dastardly act were ever perpetrated on the British public. All our personal data is 'out there'. One can agree or disagree over the likely effectiveness of an ID scheme (and I have already expressed my own reservations), but to my mind, the desirability of anyone being able to satisfactorily identify themself if challenged, is a no-brainer.

 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Gardian"]

What about the case of Rachel Nickel and the ruin of Colin Staggs life?

[/quote][/quote]

Theiere .............

This was indeed an awful case. However, please correct me if I'm wrong, but Stagg wasn't originally accused on the basis of DNA evidence was he? 

 

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="Théière"]

Lets start with some basic DNA information. roughly 98% of human DNA is a match for horses etc.  DNA may be ok for Jeremy Kyle and others with a small pool of suspects but as DNA is not used for a complete match a partial match is obtained on roughly a 1 in 40,000 case. The population of the UK 61,399,118 would give 1,535 suspects.

The majority of CCTV cameras monitoring the UK are of such a low resolution that they cannot be used in a court of law so are a waste of time and money, although someone is getting pretty rich.

[/quote]

Actually its 0.1% not 2% (source). Try a search on 'how accurate is dna profiling'. Technology in this field has moved on in leaps and bounds and continues to do so.

I don't know much about CCTV cameras as we don't have them round here but I gather there are quite a lot now in the UK. I think I read somewhere (Telegraph I think) that there are over 150 in Victoria Street London which is not particularly a long road. I did see a test at Scotland Yard back in the 90's where they were taking pictures using one of the first digital speed cameras of not just the car but of the drivers face as well. Using an Informix database and data retrieved from the DVLC they were able to identify both the car and the driver, check for a valid licence, tax, MOT and insurance and print the speeding ticket within about 10 seconds of the car passing. I don't know if they ever put the system in to full use but I remember being very impressed and a little frightened at the time.

[/quote]

Sorry Quilan, with regard to cameras I should have been more specific, CCTV as apposed to revenue raising traffic cameras. Although in a fair number of casses the police authorities have used "enhanced images" for motoring offences these were not allowed in court as the law states images must be in the original state therfore tampered with is not allowed.

Re DNA there is some doubt in its accuracy as far as the legal profession is concerned, My other Nephew, currently studying law is at great pains to tell me.

http://www.exploredna.co.uk/effectiveness-dna-identifiers.html

[Théière]

Quite true Gardian, what I meant by the comment was that under pressure to obtain a conviction the police will stop at nothing to fit up an innocent person. If DNA were mentioned, then who in the general public would doubt the conviction?

Thus in the climate of statistics that the police now have to operate with a database to rely on and a few points of the match massaged into place they could clean up all the stats. Ok a bit far fetched but it could help the crime figures.

At the time of the R Nickel case I was arranging a mortgage for two members of the forensic science service and over lunch they told me the perpetrator lived in Plumstead and the name. They new this from the way the stab wounds were formed, a sort of signature to a forensic expert.  This was way before C Stagg. This suspect was eliminated from the police enquiry because Plumstead is quite a way from Wimbledon. I still get a cold chill thinking how the whole case was strung together to convict an innocent man when the identity of the guilty man was already known.

On your point about I.D. cards, yes all the information is probably out there and if not will soon be. However it is not all on one card, to me that is the issue.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gardian"][quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Gardian"]

I'll return to the point that I was trying to make.

[/quote]

Gardian, in my reply to your initial post I asked why you thought ID cards were such a good idea, could you please return to that aspect and give us your justification.

[/quote]

Because I think that it would be a step forward security-wise. Not perfect, by any means, but better than where we are now. Oh and incidentally, a good deal more helpful than your view:

Innocent until proven guilty springs to mind

here, I know who I am, if I tell you who I am and you dont believe me

then prove I am wrong. 

Fatuous?

For me, if ID cards were never introduced in the UK, I wouldn't lose any sleep. What irritates me though and what started me off on this thread, is the outpouring of grief and emotional claims of the loss of civil liberty that all will suffer, if such a dastardly act were ever perpetrated on the British public. All our personal data is 'out there'. One can agree or disagree over the likely effectiveness of an ID scheme (and I have already expressed my own reservations), but to my mind, the desirability of anyone being able to satisfactorily identify themself if challenged, is a no-brainer.

 

[/quote]

I have completed the part quote you pulled from my post as I believe the opening 8 words are an intrinsic part of the quote, hence not fatuous at all.

You are, of course, quite correct in saying all the personal data is 'out there' but as for it being desirable for anyone to be able to prove their identity when / if challenged - no, I'm sorry I cannot agree with that version of personal freedom. In my view, freedom is not having to carry ID if I don't want to. The concept of having to pay for and carry some form of ID to be produced 'when challenged' is contrary to the established British tradition. It raises the spectre of ''papers please'' and if no 'papers' then.............

If, of course, I want to carry ID then that s my personal choice....as it should be. I do not consider that any servant of the State (of any level) should have the 'right' to demand that I prove who I say I am.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"]

Re DNA there is some doubt in its accuracy as far as the legal profession is concerned, My other Nephew, currently studying law is at great pains to tell me.

http://www.exploredna.co.uk/effectiveness-dna-identifiers.html

[/quote]

Thats a very interesting link, thank you. The way I read it the statement didn't so much say that there is doubts in its accuracy. I looked at the 'Forensics' tab and that also is quite interesting especially how they used it to identify people from the 9/11 attack and that was in 2001. They mentioned improvements made then for identification which whilst at the time were new and not 'tested' in law they have now become so.

With regards to CCV and its use in court I was amazed to discover that 80% of it was of such poor quality that it couldn't be used in court although as a result a report was written in 2007 (here) which laid down how the system should be developed. How much of that report has been actioned I don't know.

As I said before the majority of identity theft is not perpetrated through leaked information its mainly because of the incompetence of individuals. I think, given the amount of money it costs the county, giving every household a shredder would be a start. It would be interesting as a straw pole, rather than ask who has one here but to ask who does not. I also wonder how many people destroy papers that have their contact details on them. I personally am a bit paranoid about this and shred absolutely everything that has my name and address on it, including things to do with my supermarket fidelity cards. When I destroy old bank credit cards I always cut through the 'chip' and distribute the pieces in different bins round the village when walking the dog or if the fire is alight I burn them.

That leads me on to the next point which is that whilst we are all very keen to see officials penalised for miss treating, selling or abusing our personal information (and quite rightly so) what about those that don't take protective methods in securing their data in their own homes. Should they also be penalised if its stolen or lost that results in their identity being compromised. I mean don't we all have to take collective responsibility for our actions? I am reminded of watching a person turn over their card to read the pin number they had written on the white strip because they couldn't remember what it was, its not the first time I have seen this or somebody taking a piece of paper out of the same wallet to read their number. Card companies always say when you receive your card and pin number never to have both in the same place.

[Russethouse]

Mr RH is pretty strict about shredding everything too, we tear the address of all correspondence before recycling and even shred our supermarket receipts.

Re pin numbers: I change the one I'm given to one I can remember, you can usually do this at a cashpoint. (not wise to choose your date of birth!) There is also a more secure way of writing down a pin: just put random numbers on a card including those you need, under those numbers put letters in any order, think of a word and make sure the letters of that word coincide with the number on your pin, (in order) that way you can use the same word for every card if you wish provided you have different aide-memoire

[JohnRoss]

 

"one might visit a place (or brush against a person) later involved in a serious crime.  The lazy investigator finds your DNA.  If you don't have a very good alibi (and possibly, even if you do), the chances of a swift trip to jail and no questions asked "

 

Some years ago when I was teaching in an inner city F.E. College I was summoned to reception to be greeted by two hard faced gentlemen, CID detectives, who showed me a photocopy of a hand written note and before I had even had a chance to look at it properly one of them said "We know you wrote this sir". I remembered that some days ago I had written some information about a book in the college library to help one of my students in his studies. I had written it on the back of a social security slip supplied by another student, I not having any paper to hand, when having a discussion with a group of students whilst en route to the refectory.

 

The police had found the original at a scene of crime and having traced it wanted me to tell them about the student concerned. This student was in fact an Iranian asylum-seeker who was attending my course and was a model student in all respects. On hearing this the detectives became really quite excited and after due process we released his address. This was a full time course and the student had never been absent until that day from which he was missing for several days. I later found out that the police had hammered on his door at 3 am that night and taken him to the cells and given him several hard grillings. Now this would have been bad enough for anyone but this lad had seen several of his friends taken by the police in Iran in the middle of the night and never to be seen again. He did not know his rights and did not really understand the British system and probably was in fear of being taken out and shot, something he was only too familiar with in his own country.

 

In the end the police decided that he was innocent and had had nothing to do with the stolen car ring they were investigating. The slip of paper that had caused all the trouble had probably been dropped and later stuck to the shoe of one of the criminals as it was found on the floor of a stolen car. My student never really recovered from the shock of his experience and later dropped out of the course in which he had been doing so well. Very sad and I just hope he was not subsequently deported! So yes the innocent can suffer..........................................JR

 

http://www.irr.org.uk/2006/march/tc000023.html