teachers and classroom violence

[tegwini]

In the UK there's a debate about classroom violence and should teacher be trained to cope with violence in the classroom.  The info below is from the BBC's   'Have your say' and I wonder if it's true? (NB the poor English has nothing to do with me!!)

Tegwini

Added:

Sunday, 7 February, 2010, 13:02 GMT

13:02 UK

Physical punishment has NEVER been allowed in French schools.

Standards of behaviour are much higher there.

[Adam_Bede]

But

French headteachers have the power to stop the parents of unruly

children from receing benefits, financial support and child allowance.

Simples!!

Moderated Man, England

[Swissie]

After a long career teaching in a variety of UK schools - I can truly say that 'simple' it is sadly not.

[NormanH]

If you are referring to the part about stopping benefits this is the 'texte', but it is rarely that simple:

Article R552-3

Le directeur de l'organisme

débiteur

des prestations familiales suspend, dans la mesure décidée par le président du conseil

général, et à compter du mois suivant la réception de sa décision, le versement de la

part

des allocations familiales, et, le cas échéant, du complément familial, afférente à

l'enfant ou aux enfants dont les identités lui ont été transmises.

L'enfant ou les enfants dont le

comportement a conduit à la mesure de suspension sont regardés comme restant à la charge

de la famille pour le calcul du montant des prestations familiales dues à

celle-ci.

Article R552-2

Lorsqu'il prend une décision prévue

à l'article L. 552-3, le président du conseil général transmet au directeur de

l'organisme

débiteur des prestations familiales l'identité du ou

des enfants dont le comportement a

conduit à proposer la conclusion d'un contrat de responsabilité parentale, ainsi que

celle de leurs parents ou de leur représentant légal.

La part des allocations familiales

et du complément familial qui est regardée comme due à la famille au titre de ce ou de ces

enfants est calculée en proportion du nombre d'enfants à charge dont le comportement est à

l'origine de cette décision.

Le président du conseil général

indique dans sa décision :

1° Celles des prestations

mentionnées à l'article L. 552-3 dont il demande la suspension ;

2° Le cas échéant, la proportion de

ces prestations qui doit faire l'objet de la mesure de suspension ;

3° La durée de la mesure de

suspension.

[Quillan]

Strange isn't it that there is an assumption that children who commit violence come from underprivileged families who receive some form of government allowance. I am sure there are one or two people on our forum who are or have been teachers who will tell you that in fact classroom violence is classless.

I have had several conversations with French teachers about this subject after having a very interesting one with the equivalent of a Headmaster who's wife was also a senior teacher. It seems they are totally in agreement with the banning of beating of children yet the 'smacking' of children is a different matter. From those I talked too it seemed that in certain circumstances smacking a child by a teacher is quite acceptable. A smack being defined (by them) as only the use of the hand across the back of the legs, on the arm or on the hand. I have not been in a French school to see this with my own eyes but I have witnessed parents smacking children and even an adult other than the parents smacking a child. The incident I have witnessed of the latter is when two young boys stuck an others down a public toilet, the adult had no family connections with any of the three involved yet he smacked the two perpetrators. They also received a smack from their father (they were twins).

[tegwini]

Well that is a surprise!

And I realise that it is never that simple Swissie/Odile (I see you have returned).

Tegwini

[Kitty]

My daughter has been a classroom assistant in an ecole maternelle and the teachers regularly smack the children.

[Weedon]

When I was at secondary school we boys should have been taught self-defence as our teachers had their individual preferred weapons and were not in the least bit afraid to use them.

Bunsen burner rubber hose with a piece of chalk at the business end.

Size 12 plimsoll.

Blackboard eraser re-inforced with a block of wood. You had to admire his accuracy when it was thrown!

Assortment of canes for the ones with a lack of imagination.

The maths master used his blackboard wooden thing with a spike at one end, is it called "a pair of compasses"? He must have been a bit of a wimp though as he never used the spike part.

Our gardening master had a sense of humour, as he used his wooden dibber, telling us that he had made it when he was our age.

I don't recall any boy stupid enough to show violence to any teacher.

[Chancer]

The best thing about receiving a precilsey thrown blackboard eraser in the goollies was the impressive chalk dispersion mark that you couldnt remove, everyone that day, pupils, teachers and the headmaster knew exactly what teacher had administered his justice by the colour of the fallout

[tegwini]

[quote user="Weedon"]

I don't recall any boy stupid enough to show violence to any teacher.

[/quote]

What a change- violence not at all unknown in secondary schools these days. 

The two Edlington boys who became well known for  torturing two other boys, and one of them had apparently head-butted a female teacher sometime before. They were primary school children at the time.

Tegwini

[velcorin]

Does anyone know why the teaching syndicates have let the issue of teachers being stabbed (it seemed on a daily basis), drop off the media agenda? It was all over the TV and papers last year, can't remember it being mentioned this year. However when I read the local rags, the stories are still there, on about page 5, last year it was front page national news.

On the subject of school discipline. My wife was CAPES in France before we moved to the UK, where she did her PGCE. She always commented on the excellent training British teachers received on classroom discipline, something that simply didn't happen in France. Might go some way to explain the high levels of violence shown by teachers to pupils, and vice versa, again something the media was commenting on last year, which seems to been dropped. She has now worked in the state secondary sector in France, UK, Spain and Germany. It may come as a major surprise that she always rates the UK system top for classroom discipline. Perhaps shows how bad the other countries are, rather than the excellence of the UK?[blink] I can't really comment, I went through the private sector.

[NickP]

Tegwini wrote,  " What a change- violence not at all unknown in secondary schools these days. "

Maybe this is something to do with our parents attitude to discipline, anybody touches todays little darlings and their parents can't get to their solicitors quick enough. If I complained to my Dad that I had been chastised by a teacher, my Dad said  "you probably deserved it" and he was right.

[tegwini]

[quote user="NickP"]

Tegwini wrote,  " What a change- violence not at all unknown in secondary schools these days. "

Maybe this is something to do with our parents attitude to discipline, anybody touches todays little darlings and their parents can't get to their solicitors quick enough. If I complained to my Dad that I had been chastised by a teacher, my Dad said  "you probably deserved it" and he was right.

[/quote]

Quite right NickP

I kept out of trouble- my Dad would never have considered criticising teachers - or going into school to complain. In fact,  I would have much more trouble if I had gone home and complained that I had been in trouble at school.

Three out of four of us graduated (2 with heavy-duty engineering degrees), one minus a degree has a sucessful business.

Respect is what we were taught as children, something lacking today.

Tegwini

[Bassman]

[quote user="Weedon"]

When I was at secondary school we boys should have been taught self-defence as our teachers had their individual preferred weapons and were not in the least bit afraid to use them.

Bunsen burner rubber hose with a piece of chalk at the business end.

Size 12 plimsoll.

Blackboard eraser re-inforced with a block of wood. You had to admire his accuracy when it was thrown!

Assortment of canes for the ones with a lack of imagination.

The maths master used his blackboard wooden thing with a spike at one end, is it called "a pair of compasses"? He must have been a bit of a wimp though as he never used the spike part.

Our gardening master had a sense of humour, as he used his wooden dibber, telling us that he had made it when he was our age.

I don't recall any boy stupid enough to show violence to any teacher.

[/quote] We had most of those plus the woodwork teacher had a 3ft length of 2x2 hardwood called "The Persuader" it persuaded you to plane down to a line not plane the line off, the physics teacher used an old billiard cue across the hand even being sacked from his previous school for breaking a lad's wrist didn't stop him using it and the Technical Drawing teacher had a huge plimsoll called "Big Jim" or he used the edge of a ruler across the back of the knuckles...ouch!!! the chemistry teacher would make you stand with your arms outstretched or holding an old penny between the tips of your middle fingers above your head [quote user="NickP"]

Tegwini wrote, " What a change- violence not at all unknown in secondary schools these days. "

Maybe this is something to do with our parents attitude to discipline, anybody touches todays little darlings and their parents can't get to their solicitors quick enough. If I complained to my Dad that I had been chastised by a teacher, my Dad said "you probably deserved it" and he was right.

[/quote] Oh boy going home and complaining would just get you another whack in our house

[Bassman]

Why did my post come out like that????

[Quillan]

Fixed

Don't know.

[Bassman]

Thank you

[Wilko]

There's so much rubbish talked about the education of today's little blighters. I have found that the construction of a fairly adequate lockable space beneath the stairs. Kids are ushered in at the age of 3 years, passed the Telegraph on a regular basis along with a glass of milk or two. Let them out 15 years later and you have perfectly balanced human beings. A friend of mine has adhered to this plan and has two very successful sons with careers in.......... politics. Way to go or what ??