NormanH Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 After the somewhat heated views of immigrants to the UK in another thread, I was wryly amused to see this in Figaro C'est une honte de sanctionner ceux qui font vivre nos systèmes sociaux . Commençons déjà par foutre dehors ceux qui ne font qu'en profiter. On n'a pas besoin du Pen pour assainir la France, il suffit de supprimer les prestations sociales à ceux qui ne sont ici que parce qu'ils en vivent (Anglais compris)"It's a disgrace to punish those who contribute actively into out social security system. Start by throwing out those who only take from it. We don't need le Pen to clean up France, it's enough to stop benefits from those who are only here because they live off the system (the English included)."(My rough translation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 On the assumption that the 'majority' of English immigrants to France are retired and are probably receiving income from outside France, how many actually receive French benefits and 'live off the system' ?Those who are not retired and are working for a living are, presumably, paying into the French system as any other French person would be doing. Hence they cannot be said to be 'living off the system' Therefore the '(English included)' comment would seem to be a 'throw-away' sop to those who believe that English immigrants are a drain on French social resources.In fact, the input of foreign funds to the French economy by English immigrants would seem to be of positive benefit to France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 You forget, though, Norman that the British in France are not of the correct ethnic background to be considered 'immigrants'. They are 'expats' which, as any fule no, are totally different. [;-)]Having contributed a considerable amount myself (and our household continues to contribute) to the various official French coffers I am only too well aware that there are quite large numbers of English who contribute next to nothing in taxation, apart from local property taxes, yet benefit to a large extent from the French health and social security system. Most of those are retired - the fact that some have no other choice than to pay taxes elsewhere, or that they may spend money in the community, is certainly not apparent to most of the French, so I can fully understand the newspaper quote. As many of the anti-English comments I have heard about came from those working in the health and taxation services, I am not sure about Steve's observation that English immigrants may be seen to be of positive benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Dordogne Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="NormanH"] "It's a disgrace to punish those who contribute actively into out social security system. Start by throwing out those who only take from it. We don't need le Pen to clean up France, it's enough to stop benefits from those who are only here because they live off the system (the English included)." [/quote]Perhaps they mean the people who registered as AE when the health care rule changes came in with no intention of actually working, just using it as a device to get health care in France and to make France their competant state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 We are part of a hospitality network (and so open our homes to visitors to the UK of all nationalities) and what has surprised us is the number of French people that we have hosted who want to move to the UK. They see the UK as having an open culture, good lifestyle and income levels with low levels of unemployment. The younger French also preferred our education system. As Sarkozy himself pointed out, his biggest constituency outside Paris is London. The flow of people (and hence benefits) goes in both directions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 The big difference is that the vast majority of the French in UK are of working age, and most are economically active, whereas a significant number of British settling in France are retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 I appreciate what you are saying but young French families can place a drain on UK resources via healthcare in childbirth, child benefit and the cost of schooling. Maybe not as much as a retired person using the French healthcare system - but I'm also guessing that much of the cost of healthcare for UK retirees will be met by the UK via the E121? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 I'm sorry but I take exception to the assertion that retired Brits in France do not contribute.Where do the tax authorities say we're exempt from taxation and social contributions? Is there an exempt rate of VAT applicable to purchases by retired people?The Notaire must have made a mistake when we brought our lump of capital here and purchased this house because he charged us the same amount in fees and taxes as anyone else!If we're realy talking about the health service then it's surely up to the French authorities to agree a higher level of payment from our Competent State than is currently negotiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Will"]You forget, though, Norman that the British in France are not of the correct ethnic background to be considered 'immigrants'. They are 'expats' which, as any fule no, are totally different. [;-)]Having contributed a considerable amount myself (and our household continues to contribute) to the various official French coffers I am only too well aware that there are quite large numbers of English who contribute next to nothing in taxation, apart from local property taxes, yet benefit to a large extent from the French health and social security system. Most of those are retired - the fact that some have no other choice than to pay taxes elsewhere, or that they may spend money in the community, is certainly not apparent to most of the French, so I can fully understand the newspaper quote. As many of the anti-English comments I have heard about came from those working in the health and taxation services, I am not sure about Steve's observation that English immigrants may be seen to be of positive benefit.[/quote]Will, how exactly do the (retired) English immigrants benefit from the French health and social security system?I may be wrong but I believe that those in receipt of a UK state pension have health care covered by the E121 system funded from UK, and those who do not have an E121 have to have private medical insurance so as not to be a charge on the State. Are retired immigrants eligible for state benefits without a history of contributions?My comment regarding retired English immigrants being of benefit to the French economy was of course based on there being a net influx of money from outside France into the various local economies. The fact that this is not 'seen' to be of benefit does not affect the reality of the situation. Perhaps the anti-English comments from those working in the health and taxation services are more a result of poor knowledge of the reality of the situation rather than actual fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 The assertion came from a French newspaper, via Norman. In our experience the authorities are only too keen to take from us 'immigrants', and some will tell us to go home if they think we are taking too much. As many have comparatively low incomes, made lower by the exchange rate, they pay little or nothing in direct taxation or social contributions.It was Sarkozy himself who was behind the clamp-down on the inactive people with E106 forms which affected many non-working British. So he obviously, rightly or wrongly, regards such people as a drain on the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 On a slight tangent - another interesting conversation we had was with a lovely (French) lady from Poiters who had moved to the Périgord 20+ years ago. In her view the Périgordians are very insular and won't mix with outsiders (French or otherwise). She added that we probably wouldn't have noticed this as they will always be nice to the English to their faces because the English have money...(This was another French guest who hated France and was desperate to leave - but this particular lady wanted to move to the States!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="powerdesal"]...how exactly do the (retired) English immigrants benefit from the French health and social security system?[/quote]People can't have it both ways. Forums like this are often full of praise for the French health system and comments about how much better it is than the NHS. I regard this as 'benefiting'. Many French see (obviously wrongly, according to this forum) the benefit as being financial as well as health-wise.Of course there is a cost to the competent state involved in an E121, and inactive people have, since Nov 2007, had to have health assurance. I have already mentioned the hidden fact that retired people pay local taxes in France and contribute through their spending in the local community. So I don't see that there is any argument about facts, and I certainly don't intend to be drawn into one.We are talking about perception, not facts. Norman's newspaper quote highlighted the fact that in some French circles the 'English' seem to regarded in the same pejorative fashion as certain other immigrant nationalities. It certainly seems to have touched a few nerves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Will"]Forums like this are often full of praise for the French health system and comments about how much better it is than the NHS. I regard this as 'benefiting'. Many French see (obviously wrongly, according to this forum) the benefit as being financial as well as health-wise.[/quote]Our experience was the exact opposite. We got very poor health care in France which necessitated emergency salvage surgery on our return to the UK. This is one of the reasons we decided to keep one foot in both countries instead of move to France permanently (as had been our initial plan). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Will"][quote user="powerdesal"]...how exactly do the (retired) English immigrants benefit from the French health and social security system?[/quote]People can't have it both ways. Forums like this are often full of praise for the French health system and comments about how much better it is than the NHS. I regard this as 'benefiting'. Many French see (obviously wrongly, according to this forum) the benefit as being financial as well as health-wise.Of course there is a cost to the competent state involved in an E121, and inactive people have, since Nov 2007, had to have health assurance. I have already mentioned the hidden fact that retired people pay local taxes in France and contribute through their spending in the local community. So I don't see that there is any argument about facts, and I certainly don't intend to be drawn into one.We are talking about perception, not facts. Norman's newspaper quote highlighted the fact that in some French circles the 'English' seem to regarded in the same pejorative fashion as certain other immigrant nationalities. It certainly seems to have touched a few nerves.[/quote]Certainly the perception is at odds with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 The French do get fed mis-information just as we do. In a conversation with a couple of guys down at the boule club they said that the English come to France to have their hips etc replaced and its free. They think they (the French) are paying for the operations until I pointed out that the UK government are paying the French to carry out these operations and the French charge more than the NHS so somebody is doing quite nicely out of it somewhere.As others have said the E121 means the UK pays the health care fees for UK retirees. If you are not retired, like me, then you have to work and pay in to the system. There is no discount for being English, I pay the same (percentage wise) as the French bloke next door. Anyway apart from those retired getting health care via the E121 they still pay tax Froncier and Habitation plus electricity, water, gas, phone etc, how you see these things contributing to the country is up to you but I would have thought it could equally be offset against those French leaving France to work in the UK. So at the end of the day there probably is a benefit to France (due to numbers) but it will be very small, like pocket money almost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Richard51"]Our experience was the exact opposite. We got very poor health care in France which necessitated emergency salvage surgery on our return to the UK. This is one of the reasons we decided to keep one foot in both countries instead of move to France permanently (as had been our initial plan).[/quote]I have heard similar stories to the above (and somebody very close to me has suffered a bodged operation in France), so it's definitely not a clear cut situation. I personally concur 100% about the wisdom of keeping a foot in both countries, for many reasons, though many strongly disagree.I am sure such people are in the minority, but here is a recent topic from another forum - though they seem to have at least tried. Also, not long ago on one of the AngloInfo forums a young English mother was exhorting other pregnant girls to come and give birth in France because of the range of benefits available. So 'benefit scroungers' do exist among the British-in-France communities. I regret to say that I've come across several myself. And very few, if any, are of retirement age. It may be significant that posters about UK benefit fraud are on prominent display in many English airports, though my suspicion is that these are primarily aimed at expats in countries other than France. So it's definitely not a non-existent problem.As always, it's the few that give the majority a bad name.Steve - perception definitely makes better copy than reality. [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard51 Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Will"]I am sure such people are in the minority, but here is a recent topic from another forum - though they seem to have at least tried. Also, not long ago on one of the AngloInfo forums a young English mother was exhorting other pregnant girls to come and give birth in France because of the range of benefits available. So 'benefit scroungers' do exist among the British-in-France communities. I regret to say that I've come across several myself. And very few, if any, are of retirement age. It may be significant that posters about UK benefit fraud are on prominent display in many English airports, though my suspicion is that these are primarily aimed at expats in countries other than France. So it's definitely not a non-existent problem.As always, it's the few that give the majority a bad name.[/quote]Reading that thread I agree. If they had emigrated to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc they would be expected to be self sufficient (and would not be entitled to any benefits) for the first five years. To say that, between the two of you, you can only work 17.5 hours because you have children is (IHMO) obscene. They should have been given a major kick up the ass. As for the couple where he reckoned he couldn't work because he was renovating the house(!) - I'd have treated him as operating a property trade and taxed him accordingly on the notional profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Quillan"]The French do get fed mis-information just as we do. In a conversation with a couple of guys down at the boule club they said that the English come to France to have their hips etc replaced and its free. They think they (the French) are paying for the operations until I pointed out that the UK government are paying the French to carry out these operations and the French charge more than the NHS so somebody is doing quite nicely out of it somewhere.I am willing to bet that they didn't believe you !!!!!!!!As others have said the E121 means the UK pays the health care fees for UK retirees. If you are not retired, like me, then you have to work and pay in to the system. There is no discount for being English, I pay the same (percentage wise) as the French bloke next door. Anyway apart from those retired getting health care via the E121 they still pay tax Froncier and Habitation plus electricity, water, gas, phone etc, how you see these things contributing to the country is up to you but I would have thought it could equally be offset against those French leaving France to work in the UK. So at the end of the day there probably is a benefit to France (due to numbers) but it will be very small, like pocket money almost.I am not totally convinced that the amount will be 'small change', there is also the somewhat larger amounts of money spent on renovations etc, plus the intangible benefits of keeping local business afloat. Also the equally intangible benefits of reducing the amount of deserted, ruined buildings in rural communities which must have an effect on the ''feel'' of an area, as well as actually increasing the net tax take for the communes affected.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Will"]It was Sarkozy himself who was behind the clamp-down on the inactive people with E106 forms which affected many non-working British. So he obviously, rightly or wrongly, regards such people as a drain on the economy.[/quote]You said, I think, a long time ago, Will, that this was because the British Government continued to insist on taxing the pensions of former government servants in the UK so that France got little or no benefit from their taxes when they retired to France. The rest was Sarko's misunderstanding and cheap point scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Quillan"] The French do get fed mis-information just as we do. In a conversation with a couple of guys down at the boule club they said that the English come to France to have their hips etc replaced and its free. They think they (the French) are paying for the operations until I pointed out that the UK government are paying the French to carry out these operations and the French charge more than the NHS so somebody is doing quite nicely out of it somewhere.I am willing to bet that they didn't believe you !!!!!!!!As others have said the E121 means the UK pays the health care fees for UK retirees. If you are not retired, like me, then you have to work and pay in to the system. There is no discount for being English, I pay the same (percentage wise) as the French bloke next door. Anyway apart from those retired getting health care via the E121 they still pay tax Froncier and Habitation plus electricity, water, gas, phone etc, how you see these things contributing to the country is up to you but I would have thought it could equally be offset against those French leaving France to work in the UK. So at the end of the day there probably is a benefit to France (due to numbers) but it will be very small, like pocket money almost.I am not totally convinced that the amount will be 'small change', there is also the somewhat larger amounts of money spent on renovations etc, plus the intangible benefits of keeping local business afloat. Also the equally intangible benefits of reducing the amount of deserted, ruined buildings in rural communities which must have an effect on the ''feel'' of an area, as well as actually increasing the net tax take for the communes affected.[/quote][/quote]We are no the saviors of the French economy. We are talking past now, the days of us renovating properties, employing local builders and generally putting money in to the local economy have long gone along with the demise of the pound against the euro. Anyway many of the renovations were carried out by the owners or English builders many who have long gone now due to lack of work. Yes the Brits did make an impact on the economy but now many of the shops where I live have either gone or reduced staff because the Brits just aren't spending the money they once did. Likewise many Brits in our area are going (IF they can find a buyer even after dropping the price of their houses by 20% or more) back to the UK or have already gone.Just to add we are not the only ones who renovated, the French do as well. We have just seen a big renovation project finish in our village and the property is owned by a French village family, I am sure we are not the only area nor are they the only ones. There's loads of French magazines in the supermarket about renovating properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 Just to set the record straight it is the double taxation agreement between France and UK, not the British government, that dictates where particular pensions are taxed. So the French must have had some say in this. UK state pensions, and British non-governmental pensions, are taxable in France. So, many existing French residents who had arrived with E106 and private pensions nearly lost out badly thanks to Little Nick - and new arrivals now have the burden of private health assurance once the E form runs out.Cheap point scoring from a politician - whatever do you mean, WB? Wash your mouth out immediately... [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyinfrance Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 It's a conundrum. The UK economy in the health/education/welfare sectors has taken a beating for many years from people who've found the system easy to abuse - people not only from within UK but all over the world (hence Sangatte). A lot of us find this intensely annoying so it's hard not to admire the French for protecting their economy from people they see as spongers. Obviously these spongers are not the people you'll find on a forum like this but we get caught up in the net........It's a regrettable fact that locals feeling the pinch will resent outsiders if they are perceived to be non-contributors - I hope this is not a widespread feeling in France, and as others have said the English do have a habit of restoring derelict properties the French themselves don't want, thus improving the local environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Quillan"] The French do get fed mis-information just as we do. In a conversation with a couple of guys down at the boule club they said that the English come to France to have their hips etc replaced and its free. They think they (the French) are paying for the operations until I pointed out that the UK government are paying the French to carry out these operations and the French charge more than the NHS so somebody is doing quite nicely out of it somewhere.I am willing to bet that they didn't believe you !!!!!!!!As others have said the E121 means the UK pays the health care fees for UK retirees. If you are not retired, like me, then you have to work and pay in to the system. There is no discount for being English, I pay the same (percentage wise) as the French bloke next door. Anyway apart from those retired getting health care via the E121 they still pay tax Froncier and Habitation plus electricity, water, gas, phone etc, how you see these things contributing to the country is up to you but I would have thought it could equally be offset against those French leaving France to work in the UK. So at the end of the day there probably is a benefit to France (due to numbers) but it will be very small, like pocket money almost.I am not totally convinced that the amount will be 'small change', there is also the somewhat larger amounts of money spent on renovations etc, plus the intangible benefits of keeping local business afloat. Also the equally intangible benefits of reducing the amount of deserted, ruined buildings in rural communities which must have an effect on the ''feel'' of an area, as well as actually increasing the net tax take for the communes affected.[/quote][/quote]We are no the saviors of the French economy. We are talking past now, the days of us renovating properties, employing local builders and generally putting money in to the local economy have long gone along with the demise of the pound against the euro. Anyway many of the renovations were carried out by the owners or English builders many who have long gone now due to lack of work. Yes the Brits did make an impact on the economy but now many of the shops where I live have either gone or reduced staff because the Brits just aren't spending the money they once did. Likewise many Brits in our area are going (IF they can find a buyer even after dropping the price of their houses by 20% or more) back to the UK or have already gone.Damn, I guess I'm doing it all wrong then, spending money on local builders and putting money in the local economy. Best I stop. I can't really afford to pump more funds into the area, even if shops are closing and businesses winding down.Just to add we are not the only ones who renovated, the French do as well. We have just seen a big renovation project finish in our village and the property is owned by a French village family, I am sure we are not the only area nor are they the only ones. There's loads of French magazines in the supermarket about renovating properties.About time too.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 Doesn't it count when we bring over hundreds of thousands of hard currency to buy properties? And I know people who have brought over their life savings into France?The money doesn't just evaporate into thin air, does it? No, no, don't answer, it certainly feels like it vanishes into the ether![:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted April 9, 2010 Share Posted April 9, 2010 That depends Sweet if you need your life savings to live off. I bought all I could, not because I wanted to spend it, which I haven't, but to invest it. Whilst considered stupid at first for doing so I feel justified now by the good interest rates I have had over the last few years compared to the UK.Steve even if you spent a million Euros buying and renovating your place its not really that much in the general way of things. With 300,000 French living in just London it seems to me that you need quite a lot of renovations to get near the money they have deprived the French state of from paying tax in the UK and not in France. I am not trying to say that we don't contribute, we do, but how much we contribute is debatable as is the real effect it has on the French economy which I suspect is actually quite small. However there are people who believe they are making a massive difference because it helps justify why they have a house here and in general makes them feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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