Joe Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Last night during a discusion about the police whilst in a bar,myself and a few others were told by the innkeeper that not only can the police pull you whilst driving,you can also be pulled if you are walking and if found to be under the influence you could still lose your licence.Not only that we were told that the police in the UK have the same powers.We found it a bit hard to believe to say the least.Any thoughts would be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You gotta have the keys in your pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know about the keys,but if your car was at your house surely you would be ok.Maybe some people have only one set of keys.Just because they have car keys with them,does not prove intent.Is is the same in UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 You have to be "in charge" of the vehicle, so just having the car key on you is not necessarily enough. The police have to prove intent to use the car.Plenty of people have been succesfully charged (in UK anyway) for sleeping off an evenings drink in the car with the keys in the ignition as they were in charge of the vehicle, but for example sleeping in the car with the keys hidden elsewhere should leave you in the clear as you have taken steps to prove you have no intention of driving.It's a moot point really though - if the police take a dislike to you or their quotas are running low, they will find a way to charge you no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 [quote user="Joe"]Last night during a discusion about the police whilst in a bar,myself and a few others were told by the innkeeper that not only can the police pull you whilst driving,you can also be pulled if you are walking and if found to be under the influence you could still lose your licence.Not only that we were told that the police in the UK have the same powers.We found it a bit hard to believe to say the least.Any thoughts would be welcome.[/quote]I've never heard of that before!If you are actually sitting in the drivers seat with the keys in the ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 In France, the law only applies if you are driving a motor vehicle or accompanying a learner driver whilst you under the influence of alcohol. There is no provision in the code de la route to punish walking drunks.Being 'drunk in charge' of a motor vehicle is a specific offence under the UK Road Traffic Act, which doesn't apply in France..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Sorry for hijacking this thread, but could someone tell me about the sentences being given in England for drink driving?I mean, how many months is your licence suspended ? A 22 month suspension , for instance , for how much alcohol ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"] Sorry for hijacking this thread, but could someone tell me about the sentences being given in England for drink driving?I mean, how many months is your licence suspended ? A 22 month suspension , for instance , for how much alcohol ?[/quote]I got Mrs 'Q' to type this up for you. When you talk about points in the UK it's still 12 but goes from 0 to 12 and not 12 to 0 like in France.For any offence of driving or attempting to drive while over the prescribed alcohol limit, there is a mandatory minimum sentence of one year's disqualification. This can only be waived in very exceptional circumstances, such as if the offence was committed in response to a medical emergency, or if the offender would be completely unable to earn a living. A first offender will also receive a fine, typically around £300 - £400, although fines can be below £100 for offenders of limited means. Magistrates have the power to impose longer periods of disqualification and are increasingly making use of this - in some cases 18-month bans have been imposed for BACs below 120 mg. The maximum sentence that can be imposed for driving with excess alcohol is a fine of £5,000, and a 6-month prison sentence, something that is not as widely appreciated as it should be. If an offender has committed a second offence within a ten-year period, or has a BAC over 2.5 times the legal limit (i.e. 200 mg or above), they will be classed as a "high-risk offender". They will receive a three-year minimum mandatory period of disqualification, and before they can drive again will be required to satisfy a doctor - at their own expense - that they do not have an ongoing alcohol problem. The penalties for refusing a breath or blood test at the police station are identical to those for a "standard" offence. However, the courts are likely to impose penalties well above the minimum for this offence - often a ban of eighteen months or two years - as refusal can clearly be used to conceal a very high blood-alcohol level. There are also various charges relating to being "in charge" of a vehicle, but not driving or attempting to drive it. These do not carry mandatory disqualification, although the penalties can still be severe, typically 10 penalty points. The police often take a very broad view of attempting to drive, for example a man who had left his car in a pub car park, had too much to drink, and decided to retrieve his briefcase from the boot before phoning for a cab home, was convicted of attempting to drive, and disqualified. You should be aware that if your car is parked in the street, you are committing an offence if you even so much as touch it while over the drink-drive limit. You should certainly not, for example, help to push it away from blocking a driveway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The DD limits for various european countries are listed here:http://www.safetravel.co.uk/EuropeDrinkDrivingLimits.htmlfrom which you will see that UK are quite generous with only southern Cyprus having a higher limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The thing we didn't touch on with regards to the UK was "Death by careless driving under the influence of drink or drugs" which a mandatory one year prison sentence (maximum of 14 years), unlimited fine and between 3 and 11 points. Ironically if the person causing the death can get it changed to "Manslaughter involving the use of a motor vehicle" then the prison sentence can then be four to seven years or an extra four years put on the motoring offence so under some circumstances a barrister may recommend they get the offence changed for a lower sentence BUT it could go the other way and four years could be added to the maximum 14 for the driving offence. It's a bit of a gamble, sometimes it works (you get a lower sentence) and other times it doesn't. Also now the CPS can use 'double jeopardy' and try the person for both, the sentences run in parallel but the four years are automatically added to the 14 giving the maximum 18 year sentence. In reality the average sentence, according to the CPS is 7.5 years, out in three with a three year ban.(Source www.cps.gov.org) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Thanks a lot, really, for the long answers .The fact that one can be suspended in the UK and drive in other countries is not right, in my opinion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Do I assume that you are saying this because you read AnOther's post and the link within, if so that's not what it says and is not a 'fair' statement. What it says in the link and I quote "If you're banned from driving in one country, that doesn't stop you driving elsewhere in Europe.". This also applies, for instance, to French living in the UK but lets not get down to individual countries. It does not matter what EU country you come from, if you get suspended in another it does not stop you from driving in your home country. THAT is unfair and I am sure it is only a matter of time that just like the actual licence has been harmonised and that the level of alcohol permitted will be harmonised that so will both the point system for offences and the other (Suspension) penalties. This is something that the EU should sort out rather than spend years coming up with stupid and inane laws/rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I'm afraid we disagree about this.In my opinion, whatever the country where you ve been suspended, that should mean a " stop driving " , everywhere.My ex partner , ( English citizen ); caused an accident in the UK ( drink driving).I find it unfair that he could be allowed to drive in any other country , at the risk of killing someone and breaking a family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]I'm afraid we disagree about this.[/quote]Errr ... actually, Quillan AGREES with you, if I am reading his post correctly: his post first sets out the legal position, and then says that the rules should be changed. [quote user="Frenchie"]In my opinion, whatever the country where you ve been suspended, that should mean a " stop driving " , everywhere.My ex partner , ( English citizen ); caused an accident in the UK ( drink driving).I find it unfair that he could be allowed to drive in any other country , at the risk of killing someone and breaking a family.[/quote]This is pretty much the view that Quillan was expressing.RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Thanks Pickles. I was about to say the same thing (I agree with Frenchie), a driving ban should be across the EU. I was also pointing out that this is not just a UK thing, it applies across the EU and its time all these loopholes are closed for EVERY country. I suspect there are other citizens of other countries doing exactly the same thing. I would have thought that if Frenchies ex partner is a UK citizen and assuming therefore he holds a UK driving licence it would be taken away from him when attending court (which is the norm) and he would have to apply for its return at the end of the ban.Sadly some think they are clever and get round this by asking for a duplicate licence (saying they lost the original) prior to their court appearance, hand that one in, keep the original then use it in another EU country or even their own. Of course if he stayed in the UK and was stopped for any reason this would be picked up and they would be fined and may possibly get a custodial sentence, the ban would definitely be extended of course. The sad thing is there are ways round these things in every country and people think its 'smart' to beat the system, all well and good until somebody gets injured or worse.I think a good 'route' for all the EU to go down would be that whilst penalties and fines regarding DD should be left to the courts that a person's licence should be taken at the time of the offence, they are temporarily banned from driving until the case is heard and that the penalty is ADDED to the amount of time they have been temporarily banned. Its also sad and very common that its not the person committing the offence but any victims (and there always are with crimes) who suffer the most. I personally would like to see zero tolerance to DD, I think thats very fair in this modern day and age, there is absolutely no excuse for this crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 "they are temporarily banned from driving until the case is heard" Guilty until proved innocent ????????? [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"] I personally would like to see zero tolerance to DD, I think thats very fair in this modern day and age, there is absolutely no excuse for this crime.[/quote]That's a whole new or should I say old thread topic and I don't agree. The limits are fine as they are, enforcing the law is where the system is wrong just as it is in the topic being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"]. I suspect there are other citizens of other countries doing exactly the same thing. [/quote] Judging by the fact that the current (at least today) Air France in flight Magazine carries an advert to help those without a licence get on, I think we can be certain that there are any number of people who are diving while banned on their own original national licence. I agree with others banned in one place, banned throughout - at the very least for drink driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"] I personally would like to see zero tolerance to DD, I think thats very fair in this modern day and age, there is absolutely no excuse for this crime.[/quote]That's a whole new or should I say old thread topic and I don't agree. The limits are fine as they are, enforcing the law is where the system is wrong just as it is in the topic being discussed.[/quote]Yes but unfortunatly whilst there are measurements some people react differently to others depending on build etc. There are also medial treatments to be taken in to account, I take drugs that mean whilst I have only drunk two glass's of wine (or two small beers) and depending the length of time previously I took the drugs can make me feel very drunk (have no idea how I would register on a breath test) which is why I decided not to drink even a glass when driving. Some people can drink the same as others, get the same level of alcohol in their blood but be more 'dangerous'. To get round this and to make it really simple if you just say no alcohol at all then there can be no argument. I simply can't think of any logical reason why a zero alcohol law can't be put in place.Powerdesal - I agree BUT in a case where a person has failed a breath test and then a blood test logic says they are immediately guilty it's just for the courts to decide the ultimate penalty and under current legislation and it will normally be a years ban (we are talking UK) and I am very sure it will be a lot less than a year before it gets to court in 99% of cases. It is in my mind the difference between being a 'suspect' and being 'caught' in the act are quite different things. One your not sure about which what a jury will decide if they did or didn't do so and so and the other we know emphatically they have broken the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Q, I am not defending drinking and driving but your "we emphatically know they have broken the law" flies in the face of our acknowledged legal system and procedures (UK). It would seem to open the flood gates to possible summary justice in other situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="powerdesal"]Q, I am not defending drinking and driving but your "we emphatically know they have broken the law" flies in the face of our acknowledged legal system and procedures (UK). It would seem to open the flood gates to possible summary justice in other situations.[/quote]Yes, but don't you think speed cameras have already done this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"][. I simply can't think of any logical reason why a zero alcohol law can't be put in place.[/quote] Because you could then be charged after eating ripe fruit - which can contain small levels of alcohol naturally produced.There is also the morning after effect - not that I defend anyone who has a skinful and then drives the next morning expecting to be sober - but 1 glass wine in the evening would be likely to still show a small but measurable level of blood alcohol the next morning. So there are logical reasons why zero might not be a good or fair level - but not say 5 or 10ml/l - well not that I can see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Quillan"] Some people can drink the same as others, get the same level of alcohol in their blood but be more 'dangerous'. [/quote]Which is where the limits were devised from, some people react quicky/easily to alchohol and that is why the limit is set low. most people (average are easily capable of doing normal cognitive things at that level also concentrating without problem. serious accidents are seldom caused by people at or very near dink drive levels, usually way past. I like being able to have a pint in summer to let the traffic reduce on a summers evening and really don't want to loose that right of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="powerdesal"]Q, I am not defending drinking and driving but your "we emphatically know they have broken the law" flies in the face of our acknowledged legal system and procedures (UK). It would seem to open the flood gates to possible summary justice in other situations.[/quote]Some offences fall into the so called 'absolute' category for which there is no defence hence cannot be subject to trial.Drink driving is one where the contemperaneous evidence immediately proves that you either are above the prescribed limit or you are not. Insurance is another - you either are insured or you are not, or a bald tyre - it is bald or it is not. In none of these cases is there any middle ground to contest in a court of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I cannot agree Ernie,I may be appearing to condone various offences but I am not really, however......Breathalyser without current test certificate ?, Blood test not properly taken / certified / permission ?Insured believes they have paid premium but someone up the chain made a paperwork error ?Bald tyre - some scrote has swopped their wheel for yours (improbable maybe but you know what I mean) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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