Prelevement a la source

[slowfox05]

Can anyone explain why our Avis de Impots is €0 but we are being charged €13 pcm under the Prelevement a la source?

We're UK OAPs and have S1s.  We've been French residents for 12 years and are reluctant to go to the tax office in these times; they've never been much help anyway.

Anyone in the same situation or with any ideas we'd be grateful to know.

[slowfox05]

PS.

Had just pressed "Post" when I received this.

Suite à la suppression de

l'acompte du prélèvement à la source des revenus étrangers de monsieur

courant octobre 2019, le système a considéré que monsieur ne devait plus

être prélevé pour les années futures.

L'acompte de

monsieur a été recalculé ce jour à 23 €. Le prélèvement de 36 € (13 €

pour madame + 23 € pour monsieur) commencera à partir de février 2021.

Gone from bad to worse!

[NormanH]

Is the UK OAP your only source of income?

[slowfox05]

No, we have UK government teacher pensions plus UK rental income.

[EuroTr@sh]

If you both have full UK state pensions, plus teaching pensions; plus rental income, it seems unlikely that your avis would be zero?

Slight diversion but this thread reminded me of something I read saying that the exemption from social charges for Brits on UK rental income was due to Brits being EU citizens and it would cease to apply after Brexit. Does anyone know whether that is correct or whether it was fake news?

[NormanH]

ET I think it was in the posting I made from LeFigaro  about changes from the 1st January

I can't find that but there is this:

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/personal-tax/brace-for-brexit-20-tax-hike-for-french-property-owners

[EuroTr@sh]

Thank you Norman, that is what was at the back of my mind.

[slowfox05]

Thanks for your comments/help.  I looked at Norman's link but it seemed to be about UK residents with French rental income and we are French residents with UK rental income.

I think from what the tax office sent me yesterday the problem started with a visit we paid to the tax office in October 2019 when we the tax official could not understand what a UK state OAP is.

Our figures declared in May 20 for income in 2019 are:

UK OAP:                            Me €8269 my wife €4797

UK government pensions:  Me €14002 my wife €13433

UK rental income:              Joint €1179

Should we be paying French tax on these figures?

We're very confused as we now find that we paid €469 last year in impots sur le revenue.  I think a trip to the tax office is called for.

[EuroTr@sh]

deleted

[slowfox05]

Thanks, that offers some re-assurance but we're still confused by what I received from the tax office yesterday.  We paid no French tax at all until last year (on 2018 income) but our gross income hasn't changed significantly since 2014.

Yes the rental income was really that low as we were between tenants & spent a goodly bit on decorating/improvements.

[EuroTr@sh]

If you read the post I made above before i deleted it, ignore it. I realised after posting it that your teaching pensions would probably be taxable in the UK not France, and I don't know the implications of that.

[slowfox05]

That's correct, the UK rental income & UK government pensions are taxed in the PAYE system in the UK so it's only our UK OAPs that are taxed here, as I understand it.

[Weegie]

The problem you had with the tax official was one that I came across some years ago.  In the end I did a paper for our local tax office explaining the differences between the UK and the French systems. 

The use of a "State" pension conveys to them that you were a state employee and not that it was a general Old Age Pension such as is paid by the various "Caisses" in France..

That aside, you will have to pay tax on your UK OAP but your global income is taken into account to detrmine what level of tax you have to pay.

So, if your global income is such that you are taken into a higher tax band then you would have to pay at that level on the proportion that is taxable. 

Which means that jointly you would be taxed on £13066 - your combined OAP (convertd to Euros) but at the level which corresponds to  your total income

Hope that is of some help.

[Francophile]

In round figures, your income totals €41.5K which, if it were taxable in France in its entirety, would result in a tax bill of approximately €2K. But only your State pensions (€13K, slightly more than 30% of total world income) are actually taxable in France, so your liability to French tax is just over €600 (slightly more than 30% of the €2K).

So no, I don’t believe a trip to the tax office is called for!

[suein56]

Both Weegie and Francophile have summed up as accurately as possible at a distance your tax situation here in France .. 36€ a month seems a reasonable amount to be required to pay.

[slowfox05]

Thanks to you all for your contributions.  I've taken advantage of a snowy morning here in 05 to fetch out an old copy of a guide to french tax in English that I bought years ago which had a worked example showing how the tax credit fitted in to the calculations.  Did the sums myself & came to the same conclusion as suein56.  So I won't be darkening the door of the tax office.

Thanks again, it's good to have plenty of folk prepared to offer advice/re-assurance.

[Laurier]

Thanks from me, too. We have a very similar set of circumstances to Slowfox so I was very interested in the postings.

[idun]

Blimey no wonder lots of french folk think that brits are rich.

AND ofcourse, what with the international tax agreements being as they are, it means that little tax in paid in either country, on very good incomes.

We never win with these things, we always pay full whack no matter where we are........... tant pis, just the way it is.

[NormanH]

You forget that the  Gov pensions have already been taxed at source in the UK at the same 'whack' as anyone elsepays.

The figures for French tax liability concern the OAPs.

French income tax is lower than UK income tax, but French social charges bump it up for French people.

Where British pensioners gain is in the fact that they no longer  pay NI contributions

(unlike French pensioners who continue to pay social charges),

not in the amount of income tax they pay which is higher than if it were all taxed in France.

[Laurier]

Thank you for clarifying that, Norman.

As we are happy residents of  France, we would rather our Govt pensions were taxed in France but we have no choice in the matter.

[idun]

No NH I didn't get anything wrong there. I used to be a wages clerk and had taken everything into account.

No idea if the 10%'s had been taken into account either from those figures.

The advantage of anyone moving to France, with a gov pension is that everyone in the UK is taxed individually.

So on those gov incomes, around £12k will have been issued as a personal allowance leaving very little to pay in this case, £100 or so, but next to nothing.

IF ofcourse they moved back to the UK then it would be different and they would pay a lot more tax in the UK. Certainly over £2k I haven't worked it out, but I could, that would be their joint tax bill.

IF all their income was declared in France, then they would what, probably pay around €1500 or so in impots.

I do not believe with the current rules, that they should have paid anything in France, unless something has been ticked wrongly or the tax office has made a mistake, although, that rental income came into play and maybe they are paying something on that, that I do not know.

Becareful what you wish for Laurier,  you have one heck of a financial advantage if you have a gov pension and  would end up with a biggish tax bill in France if this changed.

IF we moved back, well, all would be taxed in France, and we would pay CSG etc and need top up health insurance, and frankly that little lot would cost a LOT more than just UK income tax does now. And that is how I compare the systems in our case.

I must add one more thing that was told to me in my very very early days in France. Never ask anyone how much they earn. I suppose the

ancienneté was one reason. And I never did ask or was told in all those years. Apart from once when one of my oldest friends tentatively told me that their joint pensions would be €2600.  AND that was the only time such a thing was mentioned.

So a suggestion, do not post all your details about your income on the WWW. Not a good idea really.