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If I were younger...


woolybanana

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I wouldn't go to South America if I was paid to go.

I wouldn't mind visiting HK or Indonesia, but not to live. I am from the north and take badly to the heat and humidity, so a holiday would be one thing, and living would be quite another.  And I suppose that NZ's south island would probably suit me quite well.

 

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[quote user="Kitty"]Surely you can only really go to those places where you can speak the language.  Can anyone live in France successfully without speaking French?

[/quote]I don't imagine living in the UK would be practical if you couldn't speak English.[:)]
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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Kitty"]Surely you can only really go to those places where you can speak the language.  Can anyone live in France successfully without speaking French?

[/quote]I don't imagine living in the UK would be practical if you couldn't speak English.[:)][/quote]

Then you would be very much misguided; - in areas of the UK there are large sectors of the population who do not have a rudimentary grasp of english, and rely on a few members of their community for the necessary communication, (in Bristol for example the city council has an in-house Somalian translator and a list of over 21 other language translations. .  bristol.gov.uk/ /community_ diversity/Languages spoken . 

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[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Kitty"]Surely you can only really go to those places where you can speak the language.  Can anyone live in France successfully without speaking French?

[/quote]I don't imagine living in the UK would be practical if you couldn't speak English.[:)][/quote]

Then you would be very much misguided; - in areas of the UK there are large sectors of the population who do not have a rudimentary grasp of english, and rely on a few members of their community for the necessary communication, (in Bristol for example the city council has an in-house Somalian translator and a list of over 21 other language translations. .  bristol.gov.uk/ /community_ diversity/Languages spoken . 

[/quote]No need to get insulting.

The sort of life you describe for these people kis in myopinion more existing than living. Not being able to react with the majority of people without having an interpreter is not a proper life and in fact encourages petty racism. In my experience nothing combats the evil of racism more than contact with people from different backgrounds. It is a good thing that official information is made available in many languages as it is obviously important that people fullt understand it but you need to able to communicate with the ordinary people where you live.

Still, don't lets fall out over this. It is the season of goodwill so lets just agree to disagree in a friendly way[:)]

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Living, as I do, in a "major conurbation" and spending my working life teaching English to foreigners, I am regularly surprised. Unlike the fairly frequent posts on Francophile forums where people are asking where they can obtain free, or even simply "cheap" French lessons (because, heaven forfend they should have to pay for the privilege of being helped to learn the language) I have regular groups of students from all over the globe who pay a not insignificant sum of money to learn English. They want to learn, are prepared to turn up regularly for lessons, and are happy to shell out money from their (usually quite small) income to do so. And the vast majority are able to pay because although their incomes are small, they are derived from hard graft in menial jobs (making them UK taxpayers, BTW) which in their small way are contributing to the UK's economy.

As for paid translators, yes, there are certainlyn large numbers of people living in the UK whose English isn't up to much, but I fail to see the difference between this and the innumerable requests on forums like this one for "English speaking" doctors, dentists, hairdressers, car mechanics, vets and  so on.

It's often hard to understand  the reaction of Brits in France, many of whom are guilty of exactly the same lack of linguistic effort, to immigrants to the UK.

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Well If I were to emigrate Down Under I would certainly need language classes!

as bald as a bandicoot,

as cunning as a dunny rat,

as lonely as a country dunny,

flat out like a lizard drinking,

grinning like a shot fox,

look like a consumptive kangaroo,

a feed, a frostie and a feature,

bring a plate,

in full feather,

rough end of a pineapple,

to plant the foot,

to big-note oneself,

to give it a burl,

not to know Christmas from Bourke Street,

not to have a brass razoo,

dingo’s breakfast,

to have kangaroos in the top

paddock,

to have tickets on oneself

[:-))]

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There are three types of Brits living in France, two of which I can't stand.

The first group are those that have the gift, for that's what it is, with languages and speak very good French. They look down on us lot that have moved here originally with no French and are learning as we go.

The second group are those like Betty described. They make no effort at all, they all mix together in 'clicks', only speak English and complain that last time they went 'home' they stood in the supermarket queue and didn't hear a word of English spoken and then continue to moline all immigrants to the UK and use them as an excuse to move out. This lot are hypocrites pure and simple.

Then there are people like me. I have said time after time I slaughter the language and have tried to learn via lesson's etc but they interfere with my business i.e. I can't do them for eight to ten months of the year because I am working. Also I really struggle with my pronunciation (never been able to 'roll' an R for instance since I had my stroke). Now most of the time we get along, can have basic conversations, enjoy French friends and try and get involved with things. There does come a point however where our French runs out or we are nervous and uncertain in some situations. Health care is one area for instance. I don't know all the words although I look some up in a dictionary and write them down before I go but I feel much happier and safer if the consultant speaks English. Technical problems are another I don't have the vocabulary for and then there there's the vet. I mean it's bad enough at times explaining to an English vet that the dog or cat is not themselves, you can't put your finger on what it is but you want them to check your pet over just in case. Unfortunately animals don't speak so they rely on you to speak for them and you need to get it right. So for me in some circumstances there is no shame in sourcing English speaking doctors etc nor is there any shame in using an interpreter. I mean, unlike in the UK, it's not like the state is paying for the translator.

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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="just john "]

 Then you would be very much misguided; - in areas of the UK there are large sectors of the population who do not have a rudimentary grasp of english, and rely on a few members of their community for the necessary communication, (in Bristol for example the city council has an in-house Somalian translator and a list of over 21 other language translations. .  bristol.gov.uk/ /community_ diversity/Languages spoken . 

[/quote]No need to get insulting.

The sort of life you describe for these people kis in myopinion more existing than living. Not being able to react with the majority of people without having an interpreter is not a proper life and in fact encourages petty racism. In my experience nothing combats the evil of racism more than contact with people from different backgrounds. It is a good thing that official information is made available in many languages as it is obviously important that people fullt understand it but you need to able to communicate with the ordinary people where you live.

Still, don't lets fall out over this. It is the season of goodwill so lets just agree to disagree in a friendly way[:)]

[/quote]

I stand to be corrected but read the post again, I don't believe there is any element of racism or insult from me.
I was stating a fact that in the UK groups do exist perfectly content with their own language in their own communitites and mixing very little, (a bit like some of the Brits in France and Hong Kong to mention a few of my experience) with support for them from all kinds of sources. To be unaware of this is merely to demonstrate the limit of your own experience.

(by way of explanation for those who read what's on the page, As a printer, BCC was a client of mine.)

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There are and always will be people who have a tin ear for languages. However, let's not forget how relatively easy it is for us to get started on French. Most of us have had the benefit of at least 16 years of education, know how to read and write and so on.

Somalia was given as an example earlier. According to UNICEF and other sources, primary schools in Somalia have a 42% enrolment rate and a 24% attendance rate. About 24% of the adult population is literate. Only 11% of males and 5% of females enrol in secondary school, and the attendance rates of this small proportion are only 9 and 5% respectively.

Add to this the fact that Somali and Arabic are the main languages. If you're able to read and write Arabic, having had the benefit of enough education to do so, then in order to read and write English you first have to master a new alphabet, and learn to read and write "backwards".  If you're able to write Somali, then you're still going to struggle with English..not least because Somalia only adopted the  English Latin alphabet in 1972. SOmali, BTW, is only an "Official" language anyway. There are a gazillion dialects and sub-languages.

We also forget our immense good fortune: most of my students, when asked why they want (or need) to learn English, look at me as if I've just asked them why they find it necessary to breathe. The majority are convinced that it is an absolute necessity for them, in order to further their careers or to gain employment. This, irrespective of whether they intend remaining in the UK or have every intention of returning to their country of origin. As a result of this sort of approach, we, as native English speakers, have the benefit of being able to travel to, or indeed emigrate to almost any country on earth and expect to find someone who will speak to us in our own language without us having to make any effort.

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[quote user="just john "][quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="just john "]

 Then you would be very much misguided; - in areas of the UK there are large sectors of the population who do not have a rudimentary grasp of english, and rely on a few members of their community for the necessary communication, (in Bristol for example the city council has an in-house Somalian translator and a list of over 21 other language translations. .  bristol.gov.uk/ /community_ diversity/Languages spoken . 

[/quote]No need to get insulting.

The sort of life you describe for these people kis in myopinion more existing than living. Not being able to react with the majority of people without having an interpreter is not a proper life and in fact encourages petty racism. In my experience nothing combats the evil of racism more than contact with people from different backgrounds. It is a good thing that official information is made available in many languages as it is obviously important that people fullt understand it but you need to able to communicate with the ordinary people where you live.

Still, don't lets fall out over this. It is the season of goodwill so lets just agree to disagree in a friendly way[:)]

[/quote]

I stand to be corrected but read the post again, I don't believe there is any element of racism or insult from me.
I was stating a fact that in the UK groups do exist perfectly content with their own language in their own communitites and mixing very little, (a bit like some of the Brits in France and Hong Kong to mention a few of my experience) with support for them from all kinds of sources. To be unaware of this is merely to demonstrate the limit of your own experience.

(by way of explanation for those who read what's on the page, As a printer, BCC was a client of mine.)

[/quote]Firstly I did not say or think you were being racist.Perhaps you should read the poist properly as well! What I meant was that people living in language ghettos and unable to have normal friendly contact with the majority of the population does nothing to break down the prejudices of the racist minority.

However I did feel that your words about me were insulting  in both your posts. To call someone misguided and to query their experience (especially when you do not know anything about me) is definitely not complimentary.

Yes, of course it is possible to exist anywhere without speaking the language but IMO it benefits everyone if they can speak a bit of the language.

Finally I hope you had a good Christmas and I wish you a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year

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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="Kitty"]Surely you can only really go to those places where you can speak the language.  Can anyone live in France successfully without speaking French?

[/quote]I don't imagine living in the UK would be practical if you couldn't speak English.[:)][/quote]

 

Rabbie,  it obviously is practical as it happens in a number of areas around the UK, particularly in areas of Northern England ( as has been pointed out ). As you probably aware of it from your experience in teaching to then deny it or to accuse anyone of being insulting for stating the truth is not being realistic or, to put it another way, is being misguided. 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Rabbie"] don't lets fall out over this.
However I did feel that your words about me were insulting  in both your posts. To call someone misguided and to query their experience (especially when you do not know anything about me) is definitely not complimentary. [/quote] 

I would say that nothing is black and white; it is difficult in this kind of forum to debate in as relaxed a manner as it might be around a dinner table or in the snug, with an absence of familiarity or simple facial expression, things are open to misinterpretation occasionally, readers can only read what is written and not suppose alternative meanings. No offence intended or taken.

Incidently, to get back on topic, I have had opportunities to work in South Africa, Australia and the US but rejected them all, I have worked in China and Hong Kong, I was happiest working in the UK and holidaying in Europe for all its problems.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy[:D]

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[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="Rabbie"]   [quote user="Kitty"]Surely you can only really go to those places where you can speak the language.  Can anyone live in France successfully without speaking French?

[/quote] I don't imagine living in the UK would be practical if you couldn't speak English.[:)][/quote]

Then you would be very much misguided; - in areas of the UK there are large sectors of the population who do not have a rudimentary grasp of english, [/quote]

 

Da iawn cariad ! Sariad cymraeg ? [:)]

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