Time to stop this nonsense NOW

[woolybanana]

Yet again a life has been taken by the stupidity and bigotry of a religion, in this case the Jehovah's Witnesses and the doctors were apparently obliged to stand by and let it happen. Time to stop the sick, sad idea that there is a duty to withhold medical treatment when an organization based on superstition demands it. A clarification of the law NOW.

Otherwise you have to allow genital mutilation of women, killing of homosexuals and albinos.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/lawyer-tells-of-agonising-scenes-as-doctors-forced-to-let-a-jehovahs-witness-who-wanted-to-live-die-7879674.html

[Quillan]

They were probably worried about being assessed as 'mentally diseased' if the went against the church.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html

Like you I am staggered that in this day and age this sort of thing goes on.

[woolybanana]

A lawyer said the medical staff had to be hands off. NUTS! They should have gone ahead and challenged someone to sue the hospital. No court would have upheld the right not to have treatment in those circumstances.

[Frederick]

They dont all stick to the ruling of the church.   My next door neighbour one of his church elders was faced with losing his wife as bood was needed during her opperation.  The blood was given and he still has his wife although his mother will not speak to her again  .  

[Boiling a frog]

I assume from your outrage that it is based on the fact that the person who refused treatment did so for religious reasons or do you think that no one should have the right to refuse treatment of any kind?

[woolybanana]

That medical staff were told to stand back and let someone die when it is not at all clear whether they wanted treatment or not, particularly as a 'priest' was there to enforce the code

I also believe that religious belief should not be grounds for refusing medical treatment.

[andyh4]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

A lawyer said the medical staff had to be hands off. NUTS! They should have gone ahead and challenged someone to sue the hospital. No court would have upheld the right not to have treatment in those circumstances.

[/quote]

 

I beg to differ Wooly.  I think there is a very strong likelyhood that the victim would have sued* and that the hospital would have been forcd to pay out and that at least some of those involved in the medical treatment would have faced disciplinary hearings.

 

* You have destroyed my life (I know poor choice of words), my friends and family disown me, and I am destined for eternal damnation.

 

Emotionally I agree with all that you say, but the medical profession are very constrained in what they can and cannot do.

[woolybanana]

Perhaps legislation might help. Of course, if the JW feel persecuted, they could find homes elsewhere where they would be more welcome. Perhaps the USA.

[NickP]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Perhaps legislation might help. Of course, if the JW feel persecuted, they could find homes elsewhere where they would be more welcome. Perhaps the USA.[/quote]

What next wooly Muslims? Jews? Catholics? Protestants?. Or are you selective in your Right wing thoughts.

[Yonner]

Raises questions, other than just the religious/ethical

ones. For instance, why did he stay in hospital if he was refusing the

procedure?  The article is clear that he

was making the decision with full mental capacity, whether you agree with the

religious aspect is a different issue, but why not just send him home if

nothing could be done. It was his cognisant choice. It appears on the face of

it that he was denying someone a bed for 3 weeks. I would be more animated if a

parent had brought in a young child in a similar condition, but on this occasion

it seems free will was exercised and respected.

What would have happened if he had arrived at hospital unconscious,

with no one to inform the doctors of his religious constraints. Just curious

[betty]

Many years ago, a small child (about 9) was hit by a car close to my street. Parents refused a blood transfusion, she died. Yes they were JW.

If they want to die, let them, it’s their loss. As a taxpayer, I don’t want huge amounts spent arguing about it in court making the lawyers even fatter than they are.

[Quillan]

Personally I think it's crazy and don't understand how somebody could put their beliefs above their life in this sort of situation. My argument has been with JW's is that God has made us what we are and given us the intelligence to repair ourselves and others when we are broken and therefore giving us the ability to work out how to transfer blood is all part of his great plan. Mind you JW's believe fish don't have blood so trying to impart this logic on them is bound to fail.

I remember some time back that it was proposed that the state would assume everyone was an organ donor unless they carried a registered card to say they did not want to donate their organs on death. Perhaps if they implemented that with a sub section to add things to do with hospital treatment like no blood for JW and perhaps no resuscitation etc. This would get round this problem perhaps.

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Personally I think it's crazy and don't understand how somebody could put their beliefs above their life in this sort of situation. My argument has been with JW's is that God has made us what we are and given us the intelligence to repair ourselves and others when we are broken and therefore giving us the ability to work out how to transfer blood is all part of his great plan. Mind you JW's believe fish don't have blood so trying to impart this logic on them is bound to fail.

I remember some time back that it was proposed that the state would assume everyone was an organ donor unless they carried a registered card to say they did not want to donate their organs on death. Perhaps if they implemented that with a sub section to add things to do with hospital treatment like no blood for JW and perhaps no resuscitation etc. This would get round this problem perhaps.

[/quote]

 

Come on Quillan unlike you to make unsubstantiated claims?   [:D]

[Quillan]

I know but you can have some great fun with these people, they can be very entertaining and after a while, if you ask all the worng questions, they are scratching at the door to get out.

A few of my favorites are "what colour is Jesus", "is God a man" and "how do you know your answers are correct? Was Jesus a christian, was he homosexual (if he was Jewish he would normally have been married)? Then there is the bit about the bible being a political tool created Emperor Constantine. What about the dead sea scrolls? So who in the bible met Jesus or was even around when he was born? The list of questions is enormous and watching them struggle to answer is great fun.

[just john]

They will struggle to achieve much of a success rate to live based on their religion,
What happened to consent forms on entering hospital?

[woolybanana]

To answer NickP, this has nothing to do with left or right wing politics. It falls under the heading of humanity and if groups do not accept that, then they might wish to withdraw to communities where they are happier. There are Muslim communities, Christian ones and even Buddhist ones, I understand.

[idun]

I think maybe they should have sent this patient home to die, or for their god to do the necessary and save them. It is a waste of a hospital bed and obviously distressing for everyone concerned who does not believe in such treatment of other humans.

These 'god entities' that people believe in must be terrible and vengeful if they would make anyone suffer in a supposed afterlife for not adhering to rules that 'men' have said that they must adhere to.

 

The law cannot change, as all societies leaders appear to adhere in somway to these extra powerful entities one way or another, look at how the russians instantly re-embraced their church in the 90's. One could suspect that it was always there in spite of communism.

 

I know quite a few JW's. One girl was a wild one when she was young. Married now, and back into the JW's she knocks on doors trying to convert people. There must be many doors she knocks on where she, as they say in the bible, has 'known' the man of the house. My neighbours at my last house were JW's too, they didn't go door knocking, but I had others round.

 

I obviously haven't got the 'belief' gene.

[PaulT]

What is perhaps more upsetting is for the patient who is terminally ill and nothing can be done and their family to see someone who could quite easily survive allow themselves to die.

Perhaps JWs are far less dangerous than those who think that if they become a suicide bomber then they will go to paradise and have a host of virgins.

Paul

[Frederick]

Perhaps when the welfare state is reorganised in the UK   Any person who by any declared belief causes a longer stay in hospital than would be normal for recovery will get a bill.    The same rate as private care per night should apply very nicely . As previously quoted 3 weeks to block a bed waiting for a JW to make up their mind over taking treatment  while  hoping for  divine intervention .  The cost of which should not be carried by the tax payer .

[just john]

would that include the usual suspects? those with eating disorders, attempted suicides, drug addicts, smokers and alcoholics(did I miss anyone)?

[Frederick]

[quote user="just john "]would that include the usual suspects? those with eating disorders, attempted suicides, drug addicts, smokers and alcoholics(did I miss anyone)?[/quote]

 

 If they are holding onto hospital  a bed waiting for god to get round to doing  a better job than the medical staff in mending  them because of their religious belief...then why not ?

[idun]

Some people are just plain ill and their minds are being affected. ie anorexics can no longer think rationally, neither do depressives or drug addicts or alchoholics.

Becoming a JW means that the choice is made and getting any blood is absolutely interdit under any circumstances. That choice being made, is then adhered to. No one has suggested that this patient recanted on their belief and that they could have blood.

This isn't a debate about those that believe in anything at all's mental competency is it. It is about what society does when they make their choices. And as WB pointed out, there is a very dangerous tightrope we all wobble on as the rest of us 'judge' what we can live with and what we cannot. I can live with this death more easily than say, female gential mutilation. However, I would prefer to not have to live with either horrible idea, as this idea is also evil to me. However, it is unlikely that I would say go on a manif or write to anyone about this particular case.

Until we have a secular world, this is the way it will continue, and maybe it will get worse, far worse.

 

[idun]

[quote user="Frederick"][quote user="just john "]would that include the usual suspects? those with eating disorders, attempted suicides, drug addicts, smokers and alcoholics(did I miss anyone)?[/quote]
 
 If they are holding onto hospital  a bed waiting for god to get round to doing  a better job than the medical staff in mending  them because of their religious belief...then why not ?

[/quote]

......... but if they are waiting for their god to heal them, then this god could do it anywhere. Which brings me to the point of who exactly wants to die in hospital? I have never heard of anyone wanting to die in hospital, who wouldn't prefer to die at home. So why waste ressources and upset the staff who you are not prepared to use. Nurses would go to the home and give pain killers etc.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Personally I think it's crazy and don't understand how somebody could put their beliefs above their life in this sort of situation. My argument has been with JW's is that God has made us what we are and given us the intelligence to repair ourselves and others when we are broken and therefore giving us the ability to work out how to transfer blood is all part of his great plan. Mind you JW's believe fish don't have blood so trying to impart this logic on them is bound to fail.

I remember some time back that it was proposed that the state would assume everyone was an organ donor unless they carried a registered card to say they did not want to donate their organs on death. Perhaps if they implemented that with a sub section to add things to do with hospital treatment like no blood for JW and perhaps no resuscitation etc. This would get round this problem perhaps.

[/quote]

Rubbish.

I was a JW for about 5 years and never, ever heard that one.

The blood issue for me was one I never really paid much attention to, because it largely never was a problem for me at that time of my life. I was young and healthy.

I did know several older members of the congregation who had heart bypass surgery and all had the procedure done bloodless. They all recovered far quicker than other people who had blood.

Sure, incidents like this one happen every so often, but in most cases, it's the person's choice.

But it always amuses me that people condemn the JW's for their stand on blood and their beliefs, yet are happy to see their nation's young soldiers being sent out to fight, murder and die for their beliefs, yet nothing is said about this.

[NickP]

[quote user="woolybanana"]To answer NickP, this has nothing to do with left or right wing politics. It falls under the heading of humanity and if groups do not accept that, then they might wish to withdraw to communities where they are happier. There are Muslim communities, Christian ones and even Buddhist ones, I understand.[/quote]

 

All these groups have communities in the UK. So why would the JW's want to go to America. Jews don't eat pork, do you want to make them emigrate? If the JW's don't want to have blood transfusions thats their choice, so why you should  suggest they leave the country beggars belief. If I said all Muslims who wear a face mask should leave the UK you would berate me for being a supporter of the Nasty party. So don't give me all that crap about humanity.  [:D]