RIP the NHS

[YCCMB]

 "This brief analysis attempts to identify the implicit debt of the health care system for several EU countries and the US, and investigates various policy options for narrowing the health care sustainability gap"

I don't think it says " This is what you should do", but rather "If you did this, potentially this is what would happen". That's not useless, it's simply a statement of fact.

However, the purpose of me providing you with the ink was not to suggest that it contained any answers, but to demonstrate that in fact, France and the UK are in a remarkably similar position and France is not, as you inferred earlier, doing demonstrably better thanks to its system.

[Quillan]

It does give suggested solutions and the figures are not what they seem if you read the report fully plus it was written in 2010 and made some assumptions (at the beginning and end) that certain things would not change (like immigration in the next 30 years, etc). They also believe there is a massive drop in fertility (not sure of their source) and that people will live even longer but that in general the population will shrink. It also says the figures include all health spending and therefore includes mutuals in those countries that have them which is not state spending. Then there is the level and standard of care which I repeat again and as stated in various sources (one already given) that some countries, including the UK, do not give the same level of care as others. Likewise you can't even begin to compare healthcare funding in the US to that of the EU which is the prime driving force behind this working paper.

But we are digressing in to a pissing contest here. If you read what I said it is about sustainability and cost and none of the countries, including France and the UK can continue along the path they are going. So providing the level of care at least stays the same but hopefully improves and it remains free at the point of use to the end user reducing costs through privatisation of services and competition when properly regulated is the way to go in the immediate future whilst longer term solutions are looked at. People just seem to be incapable of understanding that the NHS is bankrupt and that the UK, because that's what this thread is actually about, can't afford to continue funding the NHS as it currently stands.

[Théière]

One of the tenants I know is an American lady over in the UK running the numbers on the NHS. She has worked on the similar projects in the USA and South America.  Her major point to me was how the NHS treats so many people on so little money, roughly a 1/3rd of what it costs in the USA.  She said it may have problems but is amazing in what it achieves and she too said you need to fight to protect this as private enterprise can only ever push up the cost.

Now I concede that the problems lie with patients who are taking the pee, as has already been stated as it's free people call and use it for quite minor things including ambulances when if they were charged it would curtail some of the waste of resources from some of our population.  That could be done without the need to hand profitable chunks over to outside interests who's only mantra is profit except the NHS is being forced by it's own rule "Free at the point" by the conservatives lawyers interpretation to get broken up in order that certain (vastly reduced areas) remain free.

Do you see drunks and druggies hanging around in French hospitals in the late evenings? I mean in the large towns and cities not little cottage style hospitals.

The NHS is not bankrupt, parts are and as we have said already a lot from PFI's well that can be put right without breaking up the NHS.  As I said in the other thread, I don't understand how the UK can in a deep recession give quite large tax band increases yet say we can't afford the NHS. They are just creating the entire platform to break up the NHS.

[quote user="Quillan"]

 So providing the level of care at least stays the same but hopefully improves and it remains free at the point of use to the end user reducing costs through privatisation of services and competition when properly regulated is the way to go in the immediate future whilst longer term solutions are looked at. [/quote]

I love that bit Q, since when has anything that is/was owned already by the country been privatised and regulated to the point that it has reduced the cost?

And the regulators and their perks and pensions make a huge dent in any potential saving net result is worse than before.

[NormanH]

"Do you see drunks and druggies hanging around in French hospitals in the

late evenings? I mean in the large towns and cities not little cottage

style hospitals."

Yes and large groups of Eastern Europeans.

Many of the poorer patients in France have started to use les Urgences as an alternative to going to the Doctor.

It is immediate,  and it is free, with no need to pay 23€ up front.

[woolybanana]

The Hospital Anthem, à la Florence Rossignol (Nightingale)

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame is the imprisoned lightning,
And her name, Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand glows world-wide welcome;
Her mild eyes command the air-bridged harbor
That twin cities frame.
"Keep, Ancient Lands, your storied pomp!"
Cries she with silent lips.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

[Théière]

[quote user="NormanH"]"Do you see drunks and druggies hanging around in French hospitals in the late evenings? I mean in the large towns and cities not little cottage style hospitals."

Yes and large groups of Eastern Europeans.
Many of the poorer patients in France have started to use les Urgences as an alternative to going to the Doctor.
It is immediate,  and it is free, with no need to pay 23€ up front.
[/quote]

Thanks Norman, so at least we have that in common with the French [:)]

[Quillan]

I was wondering when somebody (nothing personal) would mention the 'fat cats' as some, not you, like to call them and their bonuses, tax cuts etc to companies would come up. Bonuses attract tax which people often forget. Many are not direct 'cash' bonuses but shares that are given either free or more commonly at a very large discounted rate which attracts tax if sold within a certain period.

I am more interested in where the money is going with the state owned enterprises. If you look back at Electricity, gas, water and BT when they were privatised people jumped up and down saying 'look at the obscene profits they are making' in the first year. Do people really think they went from a none profit organisation to such huge profits in 12 months, of course not, the profits were always there but syphoned off and used elsewhere. Also those running these services also got just as large salaries as they did when privatised. Just to add before continuing that I was never in favour of privatising utilities or railways.

The regulators would of probably be taken from existing staff (cheaper than giving them redundancy and a golden handshake) and the government has already announce (a couple of weeks back I think it was) that there will be an 'Inspector of Hospitals'. Some trusts already make profits because they are run along the lines of a commercial enterprises, St Thomas's is a typical example selling it's expertise to other healthcare systems around the world.

As for the reduction n company tax well with banks not lending money you need to help business from going to the wall and making more people unemployed, its cheaper to do this and perhaps some will even expand creating jobs. Businesses are not charities they are there to create money, if you tax them to death then they cease to exist and then where do you get your tax income from?  However when you look around the world everyone is in the same boat.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NormanH"]"Do you see drunks and druggies hanging around in French hospitals in the late evenings? I mean in the large towns and cities not little cottage style hospitals."

Yes and large groups of Eastern Europeans.
Many of the poorer patients in France have started to use les Urgences as an alternative to going to the Doctor.
It is immediate,  and it is free, with no need to pay 23€ up front.
[/quote]

I forgot to answer that one in my last post (typing between cleaning and looking after Mrs Q). When we went to AE last week we saw three drunks, one accompanied by the town police, another by the Gendarmes and the third, an mature woman, was with her son and she had fallen over drunk, was semi conscious and her head was covered in blood. Behind and in the corner was a drug addict who was well out of it, I thought he was drunk but the nurse said it was drugs. The nurse actually apologised for us waiting because these had come by ambulance and they were obliged to treat them first. I have come to the conclusions that AE seems to attract drunks and addicts in any country.