Lies, damned lies...?

[YCCMB]

Or just a bit of balance? It appears that, in this survey at least, France has slipped from having (to quote so many on various francophile forums) "the best healthcare service in the world" to 9th out of 11 countries.

And no.1?.....

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html[/url]

Oddly, I was reminded of the synopsis I read of last night's "Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares" (which I didn't watch) "Pete maintains he makes the best pizza in town, based on a review from the 1980's....."

[Théière]

Betty I wondered just which bit of earth shattering news you were going pick on. There are so many to choose from, was it going to aspirin or sugar or one of the five a day or the economy etc.  It's the confusion principle, bombard people with all sorts of information giving either view on days apart and you'll confuse people so much they even argue about it on forums and social media with the end result that they give up and are more easily controllable by government. Adding a smigeon of xenophobia just for good measure! [:D]

[Quillan]

It is a shame that WHO never continued with its reports but at least the EU has with regards to Europe. The Euro Health Consumer Index (EHCI) does report annually and marks 35 euopean countries i.e. EU countries plus a few more. According to them France is currently rated No 9 and the UK No 14. Infact their results in general are quite different from The Commonwealth Fund results but of course do not include America etc.

The problem with these reports is what parameters are used (not everyone uses the same) and what they are going to be used for. The report you mentioned, looking at the name of the website one, would think is it something to do with The Commonwealth which it isn't. It is actually an American run organisation which is interested in healthcare in America although I am sure you are aware of that. It's mission statement is as follows "The mission of The Commonwealth Fund is to promote a high-performing health care system that achieves better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency, particularly for society's most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults.".

The Commonwealth Fund

Several resources for the 2013 EHCI report but THIS is about the easiest to read because you can sort on it.

The full 2013 EHCI report can be found HERE.

[YCCMB]

I guess the fundamental difference between ALL these reports is that you choose to believe the ones that conform to your own particular bias. Witness the annual report that is produced by some hick estate agent (or some such "worthy" body), consistently ranking France as "the best place to live in the world". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but forumland rams that one down my throat on an annual basis, it appears to have the academic merit of a phone book, and yet it's posted regularly on francophile forums by people who have opted to move to France.

As I said in the thread title...... [:D]

[Théière]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I guess the fundamental difference between ALL these reports is that you choose to believe the ones that conform to your own particular bias.

[/quote]

Are not most posts on forums the same?  People seem not to seek the truth only to find someone who agrees with them to make them feel better?

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I guess the fundamental difference between ALL these reports is that you choose to believe the ones that conform to your own particular bias. Witness the annual report that is produced by some hick estate agent (or some such "worthy" body), consistently ranking France as "the best place to live in the world". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but forumland rams that one down my throat on an annual basis, it appears to have the academic merit of a phone book, and yet it's posted regularly on francophile forums by people who have opted to move to France.

As I said in the thread title...... [:D]
[/quote]

Or the bias or interest of those that issue the report.

I guess once a year is about right but there is a reverse of what you are implying. If the UK was so good why would people even dream of leaving and living elsewhere (with the exception of those that look for work abroad)?

We all have our own personal experiences of life and each is individual. I have become aware over the years listening (and reading) peoples comments that healthcare varies across the UK. The phrase commonly used I believe is 'postcode lottery'. I personally and my wife received terrible service where we lived and I would have expected much better seeing as it was in London. I can only compare that to myself and my wifes experiences in France which have been fantastic. Perhaps if we lived for example where RH's mother lives we would see little difference between France and the UK as I understand the healthcare there is excellent and very quick but we didn't so therefore we think the way we do. My issue with that is should it not be the same wherever you live in the UK?

Mrs Q is having three operations between now and the middle of August. We know the price of the operations by working out from our (well our Mutual) contribution. The price for removing her gallbladder, 're-plumbing' etc is 580 Euros all in. Removal of cataracts, installing new lenses and lazer cleaning after four to six weeks 420 Euros per eye inclusive. I wonder how these prices compare to the NHS if you could ever find the data to work it out?

I am fully aware that France is not a utopia although many that come here do, find it isn't and go home. Nowhere is perfect, well I have not found anywhere that is so far. At the end of the day we can only go by our own individual experiences.

[YCCMB]

Having had experience of the postcode lottery in France - apparently, nobody round our way goes to Saintes if they can go to Royan with broken bones - I totally agree. Surely, healthcare in any country should be the same wherever you live. But then, some hospitals treat thousands more patients than others, and so on....

As for costs, well there again, it's one of the things that generally shouldn't and doesn't concern people in the UK, 'cos they don't have to pick up the bill. Or (unless they choose to do so) take out top-up insurance to avoid any nasty surprises.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I guess once a year is about right but there is a reverse of what you are implying. If the UK was so good why would people even dream of leaving and living elsewhere (with the exception of those that look for work abroad)?

[/quote]

Gee, I don't know. Perhaps the thousands of French who live in London may have a view?

[EuroTrash]

"If the UK was so good why would people even dream of leaving and living elsewhere (with the exception of those that look for work abroad)?"

Whilst obviously it is quite important, I can't believe that optimum healthcare is the most important factor when people choose where in the world they want to live. For me it certainly wasn't. Culture, scenery, social conditions, food, career potential, climate, gut feeling, all carried a lot more weight than healthcare. Even if healthcare in the UK was miles better I would still have moved to France. And in 8 years I 've been fortunate not to need any medical care whatsoever, so I'm glad I didn't make my decision based purely on healthcare, what a waste that would have been to live here healthily for 8 years if I only came for the healthcare..

[suein56]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

If the UK was so good why would people even dream of leaving and living elsewhere (with the exception of those that look for work abroad)?

[/quote]

Gee, I don't know. Perhaps the thousands of French who live in London may have a view?

[/quote]

Perhaps some of the many thousands of French people who work in the UK pop home to France if they need medical care ?

Just a thought.

Sue

[Quillan]

I know of several Brits that 'pop home' to get their repeat prescriptions etc. Then there is the woman in Quillan I talked about months ago that 'appears' to the UK to still live there just so she can collect all her allowances.

I read today by the way that the nurses are wanting people to pay to see the doctor in the UK. I am not sure what it has got to do with the nurses but what do I know.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/18/nurses-debate-10-fee-to-visit-gp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10907218/Patients-should-be-charged-10-to-see-GP.html

 

[Rabbie]

Given that any National Health Service only has a finite sum of money it stands to reason that hard choices have to made at some stage. Also given that some ofm these decisions are made at a local rather than at  national level there are bound to be differences between what is offered at different places in the same country. It may well be that some new expensive drug  may only be available in certain areas. A winning postcode lottery tickey if your bad luck in having the disease  is counterbalanced by the availability of the cure.

Of course one hospital will be better than another regardless of how much central control there is just because some doctors and surgeons are better than others. Having talked to a friend who is a GP it seems there are a certain number of people who regularly attend GP surgeries without any need. Perhaps a modest fee would reduce this. There would need to  be  safeguards so that people with genuine need would not be deterred from going to the doctors

[Quillan]

I would think something similar to France were those that cannot afford it get 100% cover from the state and don't have to pay to see a doctor. Apparently according to the NHS (source) over 12M appointments GP were missed in 2013 which cost the NHS £162M and on top of that a further 6.9M outpatients appointment were missed at a cost of £108 per appointment. Thats quite a lot of money and those appointments could have been used by those who really needed them. I suspect there is a aslo some correlation between these figures and the number of people visiting A&E with minor problems. I am not suggesting all of them but it might be interesting to find out. Seeing as A&E attendance went up by 4M between 2012 and 2013 (source) there is a suggestion that by the time their appointment with the doctor arrived people were not as ill as they thought they were.

As you say Rabbie the NHS funding is not a bottomless pit but then even the most successful healthcare systems never appear to break even but they do receive proportionately more of GDP than those that have bigger deficits like the NHS. When you think of that it makes you wonder if there really is a need for such things as HS2. new aircraft carriers with no planes to fly from them etc and that the money might be better spent elsewhere, like on the NHS.

Last week some newspapers were carrying a story about the significant drop in students wanting to be a doctor and that the NHS is heading towards yet another crisis due to not enough GP's. In the same week finally some bod in the government realised that there are more older people now who need more specialised care and that perhaps the NHS needs to be implementing some form of forward planning. I guess that means they can employ another round of chinless wonders to form even more committees. I did actually try to find out how many non medical staff work in the NHS but all I got in my search were pages of jobs being offered in the NHS for non medical positions.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="suein56"][quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Quillan"]

If the UK was so good why would people even dream of leaving and living elsewhere (with the exception of those that look for work abroad)?

[/quote]

Gee, I don't know. Perhaps the thousands of French who live in London may have a view?

[/quote]

Perhaps some of the many thousands of French people who work in the UK pop home to France if they need medical care ?

Just a thought.

Sue

[/quote]

As Quillan pointed out, that's probably balanced out by the numbers of Brits who still appear to pop home to the UK when faced with a medical problem.....

[Frederick]

 

Can anybody tell me how common it is for French hospitals who have slipped up, and made matters worse for patients , to be brought to account for their  mistakes and be made pay large amounts in  compensation. ? Or are they not taken to task and people not removed from post when not up to the job ?