Jump to content
Complete France Forum

Petition for Brits old age pensions & healthcare after Brexit


Doodle

Recommended Posts

This is take from the website www.britishinfrance.com and I thought some may not be aware and may want to sign the petition. Apologies if it has already been posted somewhere else in the forum. I haven't looked as over the last weeks I haven't had the time or inclination due to my very ill cat who has just departed this life. Mrs KG

As a service to our fellow Britons in France, we urge you to support two recently-created online petitions to the UK government: one on the healthcare question, the other on the pensions question.

1. Petition "Commit to healthcare arrangements for British pensioners living in the EU"

The petitioners say: “British pensioners living in the European Union (EU) could lose their right to free or low-cost healthcare when Britain leaves. We call upon the Government of the United Kingdom to commit to maintaining the current healthcare arrangements for British pensioners living in an EU country.

“Whilst Britain is a Member State of the European Union (EU), British pensioners living in another EU country are entitled to the same healthcare as nationals of the country in which they live. This is funded from the United Kingdom. Once Britain leaves the EU, this may change. We call upon the Government of the United Kingdom to make a commitment that the same or equivalent healthcare provision will be in place before Britain leaves the EU in order that there is no break in continuity of care.”

To sign the petition "Commit to healthcare arrangements for British pensioners living in the EU", please click on this link: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/156984.

2. Petition “Maintain Pension increases for British pensioners living in the EU”.

The petitioners say: “Depending on what treaties are agreed for Britain's exit from the EU, some British pensioners living in the EU may lose their annual State pension increases. We call upon the Government of the United Kingdom to commit to maintaining these increases for all British pensioners living in the EU.

“Annual State Pension increases for British pensioners living overseas are only paid in 16 countries outside of the EU, and Britain has not signed any new treaties for this since 1981. When Britain exits the EU, the mechanism that allows pension increases to be paid there will also cease. For this reason, we call upon the Government of the United Kingdom to ensure that when the UK leaves the EU, appropriate provision is made with the European Union to allow the payment of these increases.”

To sign the petition “Maintain Pension increases for British pensioners living in the EU”, please click on this link: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/161717.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first demand is outrageous, its like leaving a club, no longer paying your dues but still expecting to use all the facilities.

 

I dont believe what is said in the second one, but it probably would not hurt to sign the petition but that would mean agreeing with the first demand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Chancer"]

The first demand is outrageous, its like leaving a club, no longer paying your dues but still expecting to use all the facilities.

 

I dont believe what is said in the second one, but it probably would not hurt to sign the petition but that would mean agreeing with the first demand.

[/quote]

It would be better not to comment on subjects about which you know very little, if anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go to other countries to live or on holiday you have to take out health care insurance, I don't see many petitions about that. As for pensions and those in receipt of such; the increases are very small and with life expectancy as it is maybe we're talking a very small amount, not something that should necessarily be a deal breaker. Possibly we should have a referendum on these questions? As usual; it's all if's and buts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nomoss.

 

I may not be a pensioner but I think that I have a very good idea of their psyche from this and other forums, during that time I have edged 10 years closer to being one myself but they seem even more alien. 

 

The EU reciprocal healthcare agreement does not just apply to pensioners, why should they think they are a special case? Why would anyone, of any age expect to continue to benefit from an EU accord when they are (will be) no longer part of the EU?

 

Nick is right, its all ifs and buts, in the 2 cases cited above I dont actually expect there to be any change for pensioners, for people of working age quite probably, now that would be the time for a petition [:)]

 

This one smacks of the French unions going on strike following the announcement of a future study or whatever because they think that they might be disadvantaged in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in petition 1 it expects those paying tax in the UK to pay for the healthcare of those who do not pay UK tax. The French living in the UK will be paying UK tax so entitled to UK healthcare.

Seems like the train fare dodger being caught and those that have paid for a ticket having to then pay for the dodger.

To the argument 'if we living in France were to live in the UK then we would be entitled to UK healthcare' - completely true but you would also be paying UK tax.

If France pays for the healthcare of the French living in the UK then fair enough - it has to be reciprocal to be fair.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 In fairness, those who live in France, on public pensions do pay tax in the UK on their pensions.

This could affect us in a reverse way too, and I am not campaigning for 'our' rights.

Another thread had me having a nosey on french sites about french peoples rights and I would say that what was stated on here, ie that EU people moving to France are not treat at all like french people, and how the GREAT EU let the french get away with that, I have no idea. I am glad we are leaving and the more I see, the happier I am about it. And I know that we may have a few hard years, but that is OK, I know how to do them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not see a similar petition demanding that UK pensioners in France pay CSG  and CFDT on their pensions in the same way as French pensioners do.  In other words that UK pensioners should have the same duties as well as  the same rights.

https://www.lassuranceretraite.fr/portail-info/home/retraites/retraite-modalites-paiement/les-prelevements-sociaux.html

I wonder why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul regarding this sentence:

If France pays for the healthcare of the French living in the UK then fair enough - it has to be reciprocal to be fair.

I think they do - Idun will confirm that if she is reading this. You have to make a clear distinction between those working abroad and those retired abroad - the rules are different.

You also assume that all UK pensioners living in France do not pay UK tax - many don't but some will - former government employees.

If we base this on who pays tax, then we start to exclude the UK unemployed and those on reduced incomes - a dangerous route to go down - although I am sure some might disagree.

One other thing that is important to remember is that the OAPs living in France probably are not paying tax to France from choice, but because the UK government agreed with France that that is how it must be.

I write all of the above as one not affected and who has not signed the petitions therefore. I am not sure there is a clear "right and just" answer to this and I can see the arguments on both sides. When throwing rocks at the "winging pensioners" we should however perhaps remember that they will currently be under quite some stress due to the uncertainties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is nothing to stop the UK having reciprocal healthcare agreements which whatever countries it wants after we leave the EU. Before Sweden joined the EU there was a full healthcare agreement between the UK and Sweden. Holders of a Brotish passport could get the same healthcare as a Swede but unlike a Swede did not have to pay the small charge that was levied.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did think of Norman on this one as i believe, and correct me if I am wrong, that whilst being a UK pensioner he has been disadvantaged for a long time compared to 99% of the others by having to continue to pay health and other cotisations on his retirement pension as does every French national.

 

Now I'm not complaining that UK pensioners in France have had an easy ride compared to the French and Norman and that they continue to do so whilst the UK remains in the EU, but I dont understand why they would expect to continue to be advantaged after the UK leaves the EU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be precise, I pay tax in the UK,  (as well as  being taxable in France) so contribute to the NHS which is financed  by general taxation as well as NI contributions, but don't have an S1 as France pays my health-care since I also have a small French pension.

So I have  to  pay the three charges in my link above, and I get nothing for my tax (not even the right to vote...)

That is ok since I have  had fantastic care.

I feel it would be reasonable for UK pensioners  resident in France to pay these charges too.

What irritates me however is the attitude of some British pensioners who pay no NI in the UK, and may even not pay taxes there, but who expect to have their health paid for by those who continue to do so.

Reading the petition above "British pensioners living in the European Union (EU) could lose their right to free or low-cost healthcare when Britain leaves"shows the attitude and inaccuracies.

Leaving aside the question of Mutuelles, Heathcare is always paid for by someone, and its being 'free' is never a right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very complex area of law.

Mainly since the reciprocal social benefits agreement (including healthcare) pre-dated the EU in its present guise as it was an EEA concorde.

Whilst the EEA was subsumed bu the mighty EU, nevertheless the UK can rely upon the earlier date when the agreement was signed. It included Switzerland BTW and others.

Remembering this being reciprocal, cuts both ways.

As always, the Devil is in the detail and unwinding the complexities which resulted from the European Single Market Agreement and others, will take an awesome amount of time and effort. Lawyers specialising in international law will be buying new super-yachts afterwards.

At present, France, in particular, is going through a sort of jilted lover bitchy phase. Hence the demand that Britain pays the pensions for all the brits working in the EU bureaucracy, post-Brexit. Which in itself is arrant nonsense, as the contracting parties were the EU and the worker. It is rather like demanding XYZ PLC pays the pensions bill for ABC PLC, 'cos XYZ cancelled  a contract!

Let's not forget, the core reason Britain has suffered so many problems with social benefits is, unlike France, e.g. British benefits are on "demand, according to urgent need"; and healthcare is free at the point of delivery. Since Mrs G and I have not actually resided in France and paid cotisations, then I am unable to pitch up at the quacks and expect free service: I have to pay; and then claim a (reducing) percentage back after the event from DWP Newcastle.

Still as my American chums are wont to say:

"It aint all over till the fat lady sings!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gluestick, even if you had paid cotisations you could not "pitch up at the quacks and expect free service". No matter how well you're insured, everybody has to pay a nominal contribution out of their own pocket (is it 1€?) towards every doctor's appointment. Just as a gentle reminder that healthcare costs money and has to be paid for by somebody. Maybe the UK should do the same so that people get out of the mentality of considering "free" healthcare to be a "right" and feeling outraged at the idea of actually being expected to pay towards looking after themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Gluestick, even if you had paid cotisations you could not "pitch up at the quacks and expect free service". No matter how well you're insured, everybody has to pay a nominal contribution out of their own pocket (is it 1€?) towards every doctor's appointment. Just as a gentle reminder that healthcare costs money and has to be paid for by somebody. Maybe the UK should do the same so that people get out of the mentality of considering "free" healthcare to be a "right" and feeling outraged at the idea of actually being expected to pay towards looking after themselves.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, ET.

The same people hesitating to see a doctor because of the cost are often the same ones who drive around in a fancy car and don't hesitate to tell you how much they paid for their last service!  This, btw, is a real-life example I came across only last month.

Incomprehensible to me too..........

Having said all that, were there to be no reciprocal health care, I'd have to think long and hard about our ability to stay in France.

The yearly increase in pension would not be a deal breaker if they stopped it.  For the tiny sums involved every year, it hardly counts.  Not when you put that against the cost of moving house back to the UK and also the much higher cost of buying property there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As has been said, this is complex.

However, that the EU have until now made the UK pay up all sorts of benefits to EU people moving to the UK, because these people have to be treat like the indigenous population. I have no idea how France gets away with treating non french EU people moving to France, as they do with regards to health care at least.

In fact so many EU countries have their own rules about all sorts of things and apparently the UK cannot have their own rules without being attacked. I do not get it and I certainly get angry about it. I was going to say irritated, but angry is how I feel!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Gluestick, even if you had paid cotisations you could not "pitch up at the quacks and expect free service". No matter how well you're insured, everybody has to pay a nominal contribution out of their own pocket (is it 1€?) towards every doctor's appointment. Just as a gentle reminder that healthcare costs money and has to be paid for by somebody. Maybe the UK should do the same so that people get out of the mentality of considering "free" healthcare to be a "right" and feeling outraged at the idea of actually being expected to pay towards looking after themselves.[/quote]

I do realise this EuroTrash!

I was making a comparison.

Perhaps it is well worthwhile remembering the NHS was the brainchild and passionate ideological dream of the Labour Minister for Health Aneurin Bevan in Clem Attlee's immediate post-WWII Labour government.

It was indeed "Free".

However, that said and despite the nice idea, there is no such thing as a free lunch!

In socialist terms of reference, free can be translated into something which other people are forced to pay for!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="idun"]As has been said, this is complex.

However, that the EU have until now made the UK pay up all sorts of benefits to EU people moving to the UK, because these people have to be treat like the indigenous population. I have no idea how France gets away with treating non french EU people moving to France, as they do with regards to health care at least.

In fact so many EU countries have their own rules about all sorts of things and apparently the UK cannot have their own rules without being attacked. I do not get it and I certainly get angry about it. I was going to say irritated, but angry is how I feel!

[/quote]

Id, I don't understand the highlighted bit (MY highlights).

The French do, at present, treat us like their own with regards to healthcare.  We don't pay any more than French people and we have the choice whether to make up the shortfall with a mutuelle, just like French people do?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="idun"]As has been said, this is complex.

However, that the EU have until now made the UK pay up all sorts of benefits to EU people moving to the UK, because these people have to be treat like the indigenous population. I have no idea how France gets away with treating non french EU people moving to France, as they do with regards to health care at least.

In fact so many EU countries have their own rules about all sorts of things and apparently the UK cannot have their own rules without being attacked. I do not get it and I certainly get angry about it. I was going to say irritated, but angry is how I feel!

[/quote]

Blood boiling territory Idun!

Indeed, it was the Wilson government of 1964 - I remember it well,

Mrs G and I had just married, which is, in itself a frightening thought -

who introduced the "Modern Social Security System".

France did it rather better, methinks.

Interesting Historical Notes here:

OK, indigents and the truly "poor" can still be supported; however, the rest must make certain provisions for themselves.

The

UK urgently needs to demand proof of entitlement for health benefit at

the point of delivery. At present, the NHS is notoriously hopeless

concerning collection of its entitled fees from "Health Tourists".

Dodgy

Dave tried to negotiate some guarantees from the EU Kommissars over

social benefits for transient EU travellers exercising their free

movement rights; however, as his school report might probably have said

"Must try harder!".

It is utter slavering insanity to allow and agree to a range of East Europeans moving to the UK and being paid,  as a legal entitlement, a wide range of benefits such as children's benefit: when the kids are resident in Poland, Romania, Hungary et al.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Gluestick"]

I was making a comparison.

Perhaps it is well worthwhile remembering the NHS was the brainchild and passionate ideological dream of the Labour Minister for Health Aneurin Bevan in Clem Attlee's immediate post-WWII Labour government.

It was indeed "Free".

However, that said and despite the nice idea, there is no such thing as a free lunch!

In socialist terms of reference, free can be translated into something which other people are forced to pay for!

[/quote]

NO Gluey, nobody said it was FREE.  It was "free at the point of use", so no paying when you see the doc or the dentist but paid for by general taxation.

Bevan said "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs".  In other words, you are taxed according to income and are treated according to what is required to stay alive.

Of course, in those days, just after the war, most of the population were poor and so the taxes were never enough to pay for, not only the NHS, but the whole of the welfare state.

Present day commentators always say that, whilst the concept of the welfare state was brilliant, the proposed way of paying for it was flawed and underfunding was built into the system from the start.

Despite all the flaws, however, I think the welfare state is the Labour Party's greatest achievement and the fact that it came into being at the time of a battle weary and impoverished country was nothing short of a miracle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mint, I did not keep the link, but looked at french people returning to France and health care, and there was quite a long question and response about it on a french government site.......... and french people returning to France either have no cover for 3 months or are covered from the start.

So IF they can, why not others if the GREAT EU works so well? I am just curious.

But actually, this strikes me as unfair if there is no payment to be made, but that is me, health services always appear to be something that people want but not necessarily pay for.  And there again, the very poor need health care too.

All very complex innit!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gluestick, that doesn't really show the reality of the France I moved to,

as I knew a few french people without any health cover at all in the 80's and 90's. I really used to worry about them. It was very easy to fall through the cracks then.

And then they brought in the CMU and I was so pleased, delighted, and then I read on here that it was for anyone, even 'rich' expats moving from the UK and I was furious, I even tried to say that what was being said,wasn't correct and  then looked it up and if you had seen my face when I read the new rules, I was really upset. So no the frnch did not get it right. If I  remember properly, miki, also thought that the CMU was the safety net for poor french people who had fallen through the cracks at the time, but we were old hands in France and knew how it was for too many.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CMU is now no more! I can't remember what the new acronym is, but basically everyone pays in..either through work or through a percentage of un earned income and now, those microenterpreneurs with low turnover but other income, will also have to pay a percentage on other income. Much farer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...