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perhaps Brexit is not to blame then?


mint

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Just so that nobody can say that I am one-sided in my view, here is an article from someone not British and who doesn't live in the UK:

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/16/brexit-britain-has-the-deepest-faultlines-of-any-country-i-have-known[/url]

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Yes, Mint, a very interesting article, giving pause for thought ...

Having spent all my formative years in the north, going through periods of unemployment for me and for others in various parts of the country, and at different times from 70's to 90's and onward, and having spent the last of my working life mainly in the south and in London, I can confirm that there is very much a north / south divide of opinion, and that those in London are very bad at regarding anything north of, shall we say, the Watford Gap for arguments sake, as relevant or of any interest.  Likewise, there is much ignorance about the south by those in the north.

Whilst this is somewhat of a a generalisation, the bald truth is very much there, and pretty much accurately described by this German lass.

I was shocked when one of my "up north" friends told me recently that she voted to leave .. because she wanted to go back to how things were ... I tried to explain that it is never possible to "go back" entirely to how things were, but gave up, it did just not seem worth batting my head against a brick wall.

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Rubbish article although i am not saying that what it contains isn't true or is rubbish.

 

What is rubbish is that someone after swanning around as a tourist for 2 months not working thinks they are qualified to make a comparison like:

 

British society as I experienced it has more and deeper faultlines than any other country I have lived in – namely Poland, Sweden, Germany and Italy.

 

I Wonder how mant months she spent in the other countries and did she even work.

 

I have lived in France for 11 years, am as integrated as is possible amongst fermé people yet I do not consider I know enough about France, French society and the French to comment on what is really going on behind the veneer.

 

I remember a South African guy I met in Fiji, I was leading forth about the changes I saw in South Africa between 1974 seen through the eyes of an immature teenager and 2004 seen through the eyes of an immature middle ager, I said that I did not find it a particularly dangerous place and that the dangers were exaggerated, he told me that I was talking out of my ar5e and my opinion was not Worth a *an* after being a tourist for a month. - He was absolutely right.

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You are right Chancer that no one can really grasp all the issues and influences as an outsider in a couple of weeks. However, I do think the journalist has touched on some truths.

I remember back in the 80s when there was already some anti EU feeling, that for all Westminster was doing for the North East we might as well be rules directly from Brussels - at least they might care. 30 years on and that fracture has accentuated so that all but a blind (wo)man can see it. Now even those living in the South East can see the problems as they manifest themselves in different ways there - housing costs, transport costs, inadequate services in transport, health etc..
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As the author of the article can write more clearly and grammatically  (yes, even with humour) than many of our native born and bred journalists, I would hazard a guess that she has probably been to the UK many times, perhaps has even studied there.

In any case, it's sometimes good to have a neutral person look at a situation, with no preconceived ideas and no emotional baggage.

I find many of her comments very fair and her analysis has quite a bit of merit.  But then I do always like a point of view from a different angle.  At least nobody can accuse her of having any axes to grind[:)]

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[quote]When Margaret was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, Grimsby was thriving.

By the time Mary moved to the town in 1983, the decline had already

begun. “But when the fish industry went downhill there was no investment

at all,” she said. “The young people went away because there were no

jobs for them.”[/quote]

Which was purely and simply caused by Heath's myopic idiocy when he signed away British sovereignty over fishing rights: it decimated the UK fishing industry.

I much agree with Chancer on this: that said I always remember watching the late Anthony Burgess being interviewed.

Having lived abroad for many years, he said: "The only way to really understand Britain is when one lives abroad!"

That said, clearly, one must live in a country for a significant time, to actually understand its nuances.

A muddled article and I'm totally unsure what its point and focus was?

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Speaking of myopia, have you forgotten a small little issue?

Hint: Iceland (not the frozen food shops) and its defence of a newly declared 200 mile fishing exclusion limit.

I assure you that in the timescale this had a far more profound effect on Hull and Grimsby than the EU - which I grant did not help.
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[quote user="andyh4"]Speaking of myopia, have you forgotten a small little issue?

Hint: Iceland (not the frozen food shops) and its defence of a newly declared 200 mile fishing exclusion limit.

I assure you that in the timescale this had a far more profound effect on Hull and Grimsby than the EU - which I grant did not help.[/quote]

Two points.

I visited Iceland and stayed in Reykjavík in 1999, as one of four seminar presenters. By this time, their economic mix had dramatically changed. Whereas previously, 90% of GDP came from fishing et al, it was by 1999, just 10%:

On a consulting project in Southern Ireland (One of the constituent parts being a fishing cooperative based in Killybegs, Donegal), we watched the non-Irish factory ships lurk outside the roads waiting to hoover up large volumes of fish.......

French, Spanish and Portuguese et al were allocated much larger annual catch volumes than Britain.

See here:

Whilst cod was indeed harvested from around Iceland.......

"Atlantic cod is a well-known demersal food fish belonging to the family Gadidae. In the western Atlantic Ocean, cod has a distribution north of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, and round both coasts of Greenland; in the eastern Atlantic it is found from the Bay of Biscay north to the Arctic Ocean, including the North Sea and Norwegian Sea, areas around Iceland and the Barents Sea."

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Nice distraction GS, but the fact is that EH had precious little to do with the destruction of the East Coast fishing fleet.

The North Sea by 1970 had essentially been fished out of Herring (drift netting) and Cod (trawling) with Haddock and Coley fast following. The idea that fishermen could just dip their nets year after year and the returns would be good was found to be wanting. The East coast fleet had already split into two very small inshore boats ( exempt from EU at that time) and deep water boats going to Icelandic and Norwegian waters.

EH (aka the laughing hyena) essentially did little to worsen that situation. Although one can justifiably argue that later the agreements made were to the detriment of UK fisherman.

As for Iceland in 1999, I have little understanding of what this has to do with a sell out to the EU some 27 years earlier. Of course we do understand that they had moved their economy on and fishing only accounted for 10% GDP and 9 years later they went bust as a result. Fish it seems are more reliable than banks. Perhaps you can spin that as an EU defect as well.

Trying to spin every defect that the world has suffered in the last 40 years as a default of the EU and UK membership thereof is becoming both tiresome and frankly silly.
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GS wrote (seems like an age ago now):

When Margaret was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, Grimsby was thriving. By the time Mary moved to the town in 1983, the decline had already begun. “But when the fish industry went downhill there was no investment at all,” she said. “The young people went away because there were no jobs for them.”

Which was purely and simply caused by Heath's myopic idiocy when he signed away British sovereignty over fishing rights: it decimated the UK fishing industry.

So yes I do think you need more. The Humber fleet (Hull and Grimsby) was essentially dead long before the events in your references began to cut in. Indeed the amendments to the agreements and quotas that have been made from the 90s onwards are what have damaged the UK fleet - but not the Humber fleet which (as per your quote above) was already dead by the early 80s.

The problem is that people like you go around telling the folk of Grimsby that they lost their fishing fleet because of the EU. They believe it but the truth is they lost their fishing fleet because the North Sea had been fished out before the EEC got seriously involved. Boats could have and did divert to Icelandic waters until the 200 mile exclusion imposed. Even before the Cod Wars however Grimsby was at a disadvantage over Aberdeen and Peterhead because it was a days sailing further away. It only kept going as long as it did because of the industrial freezing plants in Grimsby.

As I have indicated above, other fishing tons have undoubtedly suffered as a result of EU fishery rules, but Grimsby's demise lies elsewhere..
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I'm not sure how Brexit has got to this discussion.

The Hull fishing industry - I was working in the West Dock area of Hull in the early 1970s, when the trawler Gaul was sunk in 1974. Later thought to have been spying on the Russian fleet. It was a tragic time, though we didn't find out much more about it until much later. The effect on the families was longlasting.  Nearly ruined the town.

Strangely enough I was reading a report just yesterday from the Hull lawyer who represented the bereaved families, and initiated all the investigations. It does seem that the trawlers were being used for more devious purposes than just catching fish.

.

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