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mint

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Well, yes, it IS about Brexit, and yes, it IS about those "whinging expats" that are frequently derided and even abused on here.

Nevertheless, I learned many things that I hadn't known and I got an insight into what other expats worry about.  Having now set out my store and you have been fully warned, you can read or not read but do not moan at me for posting this.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/britons-expats-europe-how-brexit-affect-them[/url]

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Attagirl Nimt, you bite their ankles, especially those who put down life in LaBelle. And who voted for this chaos.

What worries me is the rise of nasty nationalism in Europe and the US - Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Putin, the Italian former clown, the nasty guy in the Netherlands, plenty of arm raisers in Germany.

I suspect the tolreant Swedes will go this way too, after the rise in rapes and sexual assaults undoubtedly linked to immigration.

Thus far we have been safe as we don't have brown or black skin or wear blackout curtains and speak the language, but will it last? The thought of returning to nasty racist UK is frankly sickening.

As to the UK, I am shamed at the rise in racism and racist attacks, though I can see that immigration has been too fast. Plus the blind hatred in certain quarters of all things European which is as much a failure of the British to adapt as much as anything else.

Me, I will wait and see what happens as it is pointless biting my nails ever more.

(Spot the typing errors Mr Spelling B!)
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 A few things to address here.

Even if we had stayed in France,

IF I had had a vote, I would have voted leave, in fact, until this very

shabby organisation gets it's act sorted and stops it's wanting to be

the USE, I want as little to do with it as possible.

I have not

been divorced in real life, but frankly I would not stay in a shabby

marriage........... who would?????? And this institution is worse than

shabby as far as I am concerned.

Yes, I

understand people being worried. In lots of ways I should be. This could

radically affect our lives, but no matter what, I shall just get on

with it and have far more important things in life to worry about, let

alone whinge.

Racism, well, the biggest mistake ever made

IMO, was believing that we should all be tolerant of every last thing. I

am human and I know I am not, I can never ever be tolerant of seeing

that the simplest of things, ie a woman wearing head covering to show

her subservience to what ever. This applies equally to nuns as it does

to any other religion/culture.

And the very idea that a woman is asking

for it, if her head is not covered, because she will incite men is

disgusting on so many levels, because that is saying all men are

rapists, and for all I judge the world by how the women are treat, I DO

NOT BELIEVE, that of men either.

Head coverings: to keep

warm, to keep the sun off, bad hair day and just a classy accessory to

go out, and ofcourse hygene reasons when food and medical things are

involved.

And back to this brexit thing.

The vote was in

June. Cameron did not expect the vote to go as it did. Had there been

planning by anyone, no, I would doubt it. Why spend money on a foregone

conclusion.

There are no experts, there are lots of people with

opinions, and the more of them that are put in the group deciding this, will not be good.

Basically I believe that this two year rule was because they never believed anyone would do it........ again, what arrogance and complete lack of forethought. Took years to sort the treaties out and I am currently experiencing how utterly crappy they have been at that......... and then pulling the plug is supposed to be simple........ how can it be?

And the Britain I live in is not any more nasty racist than France is. I am not saying that there are not areas where it is, there again, I reckon that I could find areas in France that are equally bad. Sure it would not be hard.

My reasons for leaving are even firmer than they ever were, and that is that I do not trust or want the EU and all it's power mad politicians. Trade agreements, yes. And remember, even the EU is now addressing free movement, and people claiming benefits in other countries is being altered. Although frankly I had always believed that if someone cannot afford to live in another country, ie have enough savings or earn a crust, then they should have no rights to tap the system of the country they have moved to.

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The one common thing that I read, apart from feeding their paranoïas reading social media is that most seem unhappy at the thought of having to pay for healthcare in the same way that any native of their new country has no choice other than to do so.

 

Butter and the butter money?

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"Nasty racist UK" is an unsubstantiated opinion from a bitter re-moaner. I live in the UK and see no more racism now than there has ever been. There has always been nutters and always will be, same as in France. I think that the UK is probably more tolerant of race than your chosen home France is. Still it's interesting to see the re-moaning class have still not forgotten how to verbally abuse the majority; i.e. those who don't agree with them.
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[quote user="Chancer"]

The one common thing that I read, apart from feeding their paranoïas reading social media is that most seem unhappy at the thought of having to pay for healthcare in the same way that any native of their new country has no choice other than to do so.

 

Butter and the butter money?

[/quote]

That has been a constant whinge since 2007.

Brits in Europe just seem unable to grasp that the NHS  system (where the right to healthcare is based on residence rather than on having paid contributions) is the exception.

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And its not just natives either, its those immigrants who work and those like yourself who have worked and paid cotisations for your healthcare and now have to do so in your retirement like any French person.

 

TBH I'm not sure how it works in Spain but the whinges, sorry- objections, were identical, there was one that even said that they worked in Spain, paid their taxes and because of Brexit may soon have to pay for healthcare as well!!!!

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[quote user="idun"] A few things to address here.

Even if we had stayed in France,

IF I had had a vote, I would have voted leave, in fact, until this very

shabby organisation gets it's act sorted and stops it's wanting to be

the USE, I want as little to do with it as possible.

I have not

been divorced in real life, but frankly I would not stay in a shabby

marriage........... who would?????? And this institution is worse than

shabby as far as I am concerned.

Yes, I

understand people being worried. In lots of ways I should be. This could

radically affect our lives, but no matter what, I shall just get on

with it and have far more important things in life to worry about, let

alone whinge.

Racism, well, the biggest mistake ever made

IMO, was believing that we should all be tolerant of every last thing. I

am human and I know I am not, I can never ever be tolerant of seeing

that the simplest of things, ie a woman wearing head covering to show

her subservience to what ever. This applies equally to nuns as it does

to any other religion/culture.

And the very idea that a woman is asking

for it, if her head is not covered, because she will incite men is

disgusting on so many levels, because that is saying all men are

rapists, and for all I judge the world by how the women are treat, I DO

NOT BELIEVE, that of men either.

Head coverings: to keep

warm, to keep the sun off, bad hair day and just a classy accessory to

go out, and ofcourse hygene reasons when food and medical things are

involved.

And back to this brexit thing.

The vote was in

June. Cameron did not expect the vote to go as it did. Had there been

planning by anyone, no, I would doubt it. Why spend money on a foregone

conclusion.

There are no experts, there are lots of people with

opinions, and the more of them that are put in the group deciding this, will not be good.

Basically I believe that this two year rule was because they never believed anyone would do it........ again, what arrogance and complete lack of forethought. Took years to sort the treaties out and I am currently experiencing how utterly crappy they have been at that......... and then pulling the plug is supposed to be simple........ how can it be?

And the Britain I live in is not any more nasty racist than France is. I am not saying that there are not areas where it is, there again, I reckon that I could find areas in France that are equally bad. Sure it would not be hard.

My reasons for leaving are even firmer than they ever were, and that is that I do not trust or want the EU and all it's power mad politicians. Trade agreements, yes. And remember, even the EU is now addressing free movement, and people claiming benefits in other countries is being altered. Although frankly I had always believed that if someone cannot afford to live in another country, ie have enough savings or earn a crust, then they should have no rights to tap the system of the country they have moved to.

[/quote]

Top notch post, Idun! Couldn't agree more!

British "Racism", has mainly been developed by the media and the bunny huggers, plus the Race Relations Act et al.

The British have a history of welcoming loads of different races and ethnic groups, as long as they remain quiet and integrate to the best of their ability.

Have you ever seen reports of Jewish people (who immigrated to UK from the late 1900s to the early 1900s and then again post WWII) marching outside Britain's parliament and demanding a Jewish  Orthodox state?

Precisely what happened yesterday; by Muslims...demanding Sharia and a Caliphate!!

So strangely, Paris was, from late 1800s to the 1950s a melting pot of White Russians, Russian aristos, and if you recall from history, provided shelter from racial persecution for Josephine Baker and Hutch (Lesley Hutchinson); Baker was made into a super star of the time.

Core problem, as Wooly has already stated: inundate a nation state with foreigners who then live in ghettos, refuse to integrate and demand and demand and demand, watch government bend over backwards to be "Nice" (Diversity Departments: official leaflets translated into umpteen languages; lay on translators. Take action against anyone who dares to say "Hang on a minute, but..." and accuse them of a Hate Crime, etc)

Any resultant problems have been created by weak emasculated government; the political left and bureaucracy gone utterly insane.

And fanned by the Liberal-Left media.

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Well if it's in the independent it must be true, so I apologise for reporting what I see in my country. Sorry also that like you I don't have time to trawl the internet to try and justify my blinkered views. Still keep slagging off the 99.999999% of ordinary people in the UK who aren't racist. I am beginning to think your the racist, bit like your old mate in the south who when he wasn't making beds was slagging off people from other countries.
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Now, now, Nick, the Indie was only one example and you know it. I am afraid we shall have to differ on this one, but I am sorry that you don't have the time to research using the internet, it is a magnificant tool. Perhaps you might need a few lessone in using it.

Perhaps too you might ditch the rose coloured spectacles as they often cause serious eyesight problems.
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There is certainly more overt recognition of foreigners in southern England than there was. Mrs Rabbie who has lived here for nearly 30 years and speaks good English has been asked aggressively several times since Brexit as to where she comes from by strangers. This never happened before and although not hate crime does not make for a pleasant experience. I would call it naive to deny the increase in hate crimes
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OK then Rabbie, what is the % of the population that indulges in hate crimes. By the way, I experienced more racism while working in Scotland than any other country in the world. I never then broadcast the fact that I thought that all Scots are nasty racists. Come on people lets be real about this. A few idiots don't represent the whole population and you know it unless of course, you have an agenda.
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Look at this from the Guardian today and you will see the roots of racism in the Brexit vote and look at which tranche of the population saw immigration as their biggest concern (not exclusively, of course).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/poorer-voters-worries-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds
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I read the article this morning (the one that is the subject of the post) and I thought it was quite interesting and did highlight some of the many realistic concerns for people other than whether pensions and healthcare will be paid. Most British immigrants in the EU are actually working, have kids, and are worried about how their future might be limited. I can understand that. I can also understand why people, who have never known anything other than being an Eu and British citizen might feel that they are having something taken away from them. It's easy to dismiss these concerns by accusing people of whingeing or remoaning, but at the end of the day those that voted remain were not much less than those that voted leave and then there were many people who didn't vote. If those people's concerns are ignored the brexit project will fail as it will have the support of less than half of the country.

This thread highlights one of the many confusions of the referendum. Being in or out of the EU will not make the slightest difference to the number of Muslims living in your street. It probably won't make much difference to the numbers of immigrants either since the health service, farmers etc are already saying they can't cope without the supply of seasonal and skilled labour. It will only reduce illegal immigration if more funding and resources are directed to the immigration services..who can't cope at the moment so imagine how much harder it is going to be when they have to include European citizens on their lists as well.
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But, Linda it might mean that the UK Parliament will be able to decide who comes in, what the conditions are, and who is slung out. That is largely what Brexit was about. Plus, as a result of a long-term disinformation campaign by UKRAP, a blind hate and misunderstandoing of the EU. (Whose faults I do recognize by the way.

UKIP is recognition of the failure of the UK to understand Europe and to make its mark by influencing the internal politics and strategies of the institutions, preferring to stand outside marching up and down banging a very out of tune drum!
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But they can already decide for non EU migrants, who accounted for 50% of immigrants last year. So, out of the EU migrants, maybe a maximum of 5-10% would not come because they don't have a job? Illegal immigration may well go up. Nothing to stop someone entering as a tourist and working on the black.
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Yes, there is no easy solution, I know unless the UK adopts a jobs only policy of entry.

As for students, I am all for them as I know their value.

Illegals I would have no truck with as for those who give them work, jobs etc. And no benefits of any kind.

By the way, Nick, you overlook the fact that Scotland is part of the UK; racist as hell too, then, Proves my point, perhaps?
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I fear this thread is conflating certain issues.

As I have stated, previously, (here) Britain, generally has a track record of welcoming and absorbing foreigners.

However, things become tricky when said foreigners take over whole swathes of a town or city, refuse to integrate and then make demands on the host.

Think Tower Hamlets and Mayor. Google if you are not familiar.

Simple analogy: nanny state decides, 'cos of some cook in a ministry, that brussel sprouts are the best thing since sliced bread for keeping healthy and avoiding organic disease. So Government passes an act of parliament demanding everyone will eat one kilo per day.

Problem is you either love 'em or hate 'em! There is no middle ground.

And a new political party forms to prevent daily visits by the Health Police to force feed those who refuse. Or they are locked up for a brussel sprout Hate Crime!

Substitute race Relations Act and subsequent legislation for The Brussels Act.

Unfettered immigration, not just from EU states has caused massive social and cultural change.

Not true? Go visit Barking, Dagenham, Tower Hamlets, Southall, Westminster, Bradford, Leeds, Nottingham,  Birmingham, Brent, keep on going.

Wooly; you are being unfair to UKIP. The genesis of the party was The Referendum Party founded by the late Sir James Goldsmith. UKIP's core policy was simply to force a referendum.

I feel you are confusing UKIP with National Front, BNP, and the rest of the knuckle dragging Doc Martin's oiks and neer do wells.

If it were truly "Racist", then how come it enjoys so many coloured members and etc?

The reason so many people turned to support UKIP was simply because they had lost all faith in the lying, cheating, duplicitous, utterly incompetent bunch of LibLabCon professional politicians whose only aim was self-enrichment.

All that said, I well remember a man who was an ex docker; saw him interviewed on TV. He had lived in the same two up two down back to back council house in Wapping for over 30 years. The houses were unfit. Suddenly, the local council, took in a load of Somali "Asylum Seekers", and purchased a large and brand new block of luxury maisonettes on the then new Docklands development, to accommodate them. (Thatcher/Lawson's miracle economy had collapsed, 1989/90 and loads of speculative developers collapsed too. Like Olympia and York. Thus loads of new builds were flogged off by liquidators).

Having been patiently waiting to be suitably re-housed for years, the man was, justifiably bloody steaming! Joined NF and became one of their first local councillors.

Can anyone really, hand-on-heart blame the guy?

When any government destabilises a socio-economy by stupidity, myopic ignorance, carelessness, incompetence and /or arrogance, then is it any wonder people become unhappy and seek someone to blame?

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But this thread is about leaving the EU, not whether the government's immigration policy over the years has caused problems. Free movement policies of the EU have accounted for a small percentage of immigration to the UK. They are certainly not responsible for the ethnic population in Tower Hamlets. That has been there for as long as I've been alive, and before the Bangladeshi community it was a Jewish community and Polish and just about every other group at some point or other. Leaving the EU will not change anything in Tower Hamlets.

And..people haven't turned to UKIP. They have still failed to win more than one seat in parliament despite two by-elections that were in prime areas.
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[quote user="lindal1000"]But this thread is about leaving the EU, not whether the government's immigration policy over the years has caused problems. Free movement policies of the EU have accounted for a small percentage of immigration to the UK. They are certainly not responsible for the ethnic population in Tower Hamlets. That has been there for as long as I've been alive, and before the Bangladeshi community it was a Jewish community and Polish and just about every other group at some point or other. Leaving the EU will not change anything in Tower Hamlets.

And..people haven't turned to UKIP. They have still failed to win more than one seat in parliament despite two by-elections that were in prime areas.[/quote]

Wasn't me that first mentioned the magic "I" word, Lindal.

Go back and re-read..............

Thereafter, you are conflating disparate issues.

[quote] And..people haven't turned to UKIP. They have still failed to win more

than one seat in parliament despite two by-elections that were in prime

areas.[/quote]

Checked local authority and county council members recently?

Whom did a majority of  referendum electors believe?

Dodgy Dave?

Who has been banging the drum for a referendum for many years?

Corbynchov, perhaps?

Funny how Dave promised a referendum when engaged with his hopeless coalition; then refused; then called Farage "A swivel eyed loon and a closet racist!"; then announced a referendum!

And BTW: Tower Hamlets takes in a vast area; including Whitechapel the original home of the Jewish migrants. Not many were, err, dockers...

Here:

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Why is it (and why has it always been) OK for people whose preferred party did not win a General Election to bang on for the following 4 years about how it's all "the government's fault", but it's not OK for the people who voted remain in the referendum to bang on about how they disagree with the outcome?

Why was the Scottish referendum billed (even by Alex Salmond) as a "once in a lifetime" deal, yet as soon as the SNP lost, it was fine to start looking for every opportunity to have another referendum?

Why was it OK for Nigel Farage to say that if remain won the referendum by a 52-48 majority, it would be "unfinished business"?

Just asking.
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It's not just about people banging on as you so quaintly put it Betty. What I object to; is because it doesn't suit those who don't like what the majority voted for, they call everybody who voted to leave a racist. As I have said many times all countries have idiots who are racist, that doesn't make all of 52% of people who voted in the UK as Racist. Although it does appear that the "remainers" who live abroad do think that the system should be for their benefit; rather than what the majority of UK residents want.
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Just a few salient facts :-

1. The referendum attracted the largest voter turnout ever achieved ( I am led to believe ).

2. Of those who voted a majority voted to leave.

3. Those who didn't vote, for whatever reason, clearly demonstrated that were quite happy for the vote to go either way, otherwise they too would have voted.

4. The fact that a majority of voters actually voted to leave means that, according to the accepted UK style of democracy, the UK govt is effectually instructed to leave.

5. There were no doubt many and varied reasons for voting to leave, I don't believe that ''racism'' was a major part, nor do I believe that poor education, age or anything else played a major part.

6. UKIP have been accused of being a racist party who want to repatriate all non-British people, they are (IMHO) not, they have said many times that they are want controlled immigration not no immigration.
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