Sexual harassment

[idun]

A few years ago we had a discussion about this when the DSK scandal hit the headlines, and now it has all hit the headlines again.

I think I am getting sick of some of the comments that are being made. (edit: on tv and in the press)

I just don't think that we should we go back to comments made historically,  times change, and I feel sure that I may have made comments in my youth that I would not today, not dream of and if made today, should be addressed.

Acts of course are quite different and the punishment, will never be severe enough. Don't care when it was done, then or recently, prosecute.

[idun]

And comedians, what can they say, what can satirists say???

Is anything off limits for them?

I have problems with comedians believing they have the right to some words, that other groups do not...... ie black comedians using the 'N' word, or female comedians using the 'C' word.

I am sure that satirists and comedians upset, as well as amuse.

I don't want to live in a society that is neutered anything considered untoward (but by whom?)  illegal  / censored. And it sort of feels like  that is what some want.

[woolybanana]

The 'by whom' is the key, idun; certain elements want control, nothing more.

[idun]

Ah yes, 'control' is the key to all this.

From the perves who sexually harass, to those who would use the 'power' they are given/ userp???? to censor too much, proscribe free thought.

[lindal1000]

I think there are quite a few issues here.

Re sexual harassment, as someone who was working in the 80s and 90s who like most women, was subject to cat calls inappropriate groping and men who seemed unable to talk to anything other than my chest, I'm delighted to think that the next generation of young women will not have to put up with it because it is now considered inappropriate. Some employers have been enforcing policies on this for some time now (ie senior staff not allowed to have personal relationships with another employee, one of my friends met his wife at work and one of them had to change jobs before the relationship could be public). However, I don't really agree with demonising people for grungy behaviour at a time when being a dirty old man was acceptable. That said, if the behaviour was more than that and whatever happened was illegal at the time it took place, then I have no sympathy.

Humour is a bit different and much more down to individual tastes, and comedians have been upsetting people for years. Tastes change and if no one finds it funny anymore then the comedian won't get an audience. Benny Hill springs to mind, as someone who a lot of people laughed at in his day, but nowadays I doubt there would be many that find his kind of humour that funny. So, humour is much more a reflection of current attitudes and behaviours than answerable to them. Of course what is actually shown on TV is different because it is subject to the usual rules on decency and appropriateness etc.but that was always the case. Jim Davidson's live shows were always far more 'blue' than those shown on TV. My personal hate is Comedians who ridicule people simply on the basis of them being old. David Walliams and Matt Lucas were bad for that with some of their characters.

[Judith]

Been happening since the 70's.  I worked in a pretty male dominated environment in several of my jobs, they soon got used to me ... get lost - the polite form for your know what - often worked a treat, and I let them know in no uncertain terms that they could save their time ... etc.  And I was quite happy to hit back if needed.  Not as easy if you think your job depends on it, but really, do you want to work for such a place if you cannot say no to such "offers". 

[Chancer]

While you are talking of agism why is it that the speech and mannerisms of a dirty old man are considered repugnant but acceptable for a younger man?  Or if if he was old but good looking and/or rich?

 

We could start by dropping the "old" from the phrase.

 

Benny Hill is still hugely popular in France.

[Patf]

My attitude was similar to Judith's in the '70s. Tell them to get lost (or similar phrase.)

I'm a bit older though - my first job was in the 60's - I was the only woman among 7 men. They patronised me, and were amazed if I came up with a good idea. Attitude a bit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

I entirely agree though that if the male uses his 'power' to affect a woman's status at work, that is or should be illegal.

[lindal1000]

You are right to pick me up on using the term dirty 'old' man as it is ageist, but the behaviour is equally repugnant whatever the age or the endowments of the person dishing it out. I used to cycle in London in the 90s and the two most annoying cases of harassment were from the man in the Porche, who drove alongside me whilst making all sorts on propositions. When I completely ignored him he shouted out' but I have a Porche'. (He then proceeded to stall it at the next traffic lights and as I cycled up besides him I could help but reply..'oh FFS, you can't even drive the thing'). The second incident involved a group of women, whose harassment was every bit as unpleasant as that of a group of men. I just don't think that kind of behaviour is in anyway flattering, designed only to make the recipient feel uncomfortable.

[Théière]

So reassuring to hear that the wonderful people who run the UK are just as bad as the low they rule over. Through the lot of them in the Thames.

[woolybanana]

Judith, many years ago I used to work in a 'pretty male dominated environment'. Nowadays I guess there are many kinds of environment given the fluid nature of sexuality. I tried everything, enentually resorting to blowing smoke in their faces which proved effective as they only enjoyed menthol and I smoked gauloises!!

[idun]

No we could not 'drop' 'old' from the phrase.

When I was 16 I thought that 'men' of 21 were old.

When I was in my late teens, I found 30year olds 'old' and frankly predatory males at work were usually from that age up.......'old'!

As one ages, these things mean less.

So don't just think that we are talking about 3eme age or those over 50 etc.......... it means different things to different age groups.

Me, I cannot tell anyone's age any more, not even my peer group. And I have no idea how I look to anyone else either, I just know to a 20 year old, I will look bloody ancient!

[idun]

 I always managed to keep men with unwanted attentions at a distance too when I was young. Looking back, I was so naieve and frankly innocent when it first started, but my instinct to avoid or flee must have been good.

[nectarine]

I remember applying for a promotion in the 70s at the advertising agency in which I worked. One of the directors invited me out to dinner to discuss the position. He was a very fat American guy, very charming, and wanted to move the discussion to his hotel bedroom. I must have looked fairly horrified because I remember him leaning over and saying "my dear, don't worry about my size, I'm very light on my elbows". I spluttered something out about "well thank you but no thank you" or something like that to reject his offer and he said "well I hope you don't mind me asking, when you're my size you have to ask and if you ask enough someone might accept". Then he said that it wouldn't affect my job prospects.

I didn't get the job, being considered too young apparently, although the personnel department did say that this director had personally recommended me after the interview as someone who was composed and poised in a stressful situation!

Subsequently I worked in the oil industry when nude calendars were plastered all over the office walls. It was just a case of developing a thick skin and making it clear that you were a professional working woman and not an airhead, after which I found that the men's attitude was more respectful.

[YCCMB]

Surprising that with this topic being catapulted into the limelight once again with Harvey Weinstein, we see a positive rush to disassociate from him...withdrawal of his BFI fellowship, his CBE to be stripped from him..etc.

Now, this morning, allegations about Kevin Spacey.

Yet throughout, a man who has openly bragged about his ability to sexually harass women remains in charge of one of the world's most powerful nations and has been elevated to that position by popular vote: which must mean that a large proportion of women voted for him in spite of him being a self-confessed sexual predator.

It's a funny old world.

[woolybanana]

Those who have not been harassed or don't think they have must be looking through their diaries to find meetings or engagements with people of any sex so that they can get on the bandwagon, however many years ago!

[ebaynut]

What a bunch of old hypocrites most of you are.

When MPs, film makers or other people of position try to chat up women, its harassment. No-one was held down and raped, it was talk, or at worst a quick touch. Hang them all is more or less the cry that goes up from the liberals on this forum.

What about all the under age girls which were RAPED, by Muslim Pakistani grooming gangs in the UK? Oxford, Rotherham, Sheffield, Sunderland, Oldham, the list goes on. Do you complain about them, no, you don't want to talk about it. Just like the BBC and all the other main news outlets.

As I say, a bunch of hypocrites!!

And please no more story's from 'women of a certain age' trying to make out how they hated all the attention they may have received on perhaps the odd occasion, me thinks thou does sometimes protest too much.

[woolybanana]

No, ebaynut, too far; nobody is condoning the rapes by grooming gangs, nor is anyone approving the behaviour of MPs, film makers or any others.

The grooming gangs were protected by the fear of the police and social services of allegations of racism, stemming from a perversion of multiculturalism - lessons have been learned, sentences will be dished out.

What is perhaps surprising is the sheer volume of allegations coming out now. Whatever you say, no smoke with a very serious fire.

It has to be stopped and now.

Would you like you daughter or sons to be mauled or worse in order to get a job? My daughter was in the film industry for a while and it was pretty hideous on that score, but she decided it was not for her and got out.

[mint]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Surprising that with this topic being catapulted into the limelight once again with Harvey Weinstein, we see a positive rush to disassociate from him...withdrawal of his BFI fellowship, his CBE to be stripped from him..etc.

Now, this morning, allegations about Kevin Spacey.

Yet throughout, a man who has openly bragged about his ability to sexually harass women remains in charge of one of the world's most powerful nations and has been elevated to that position by popular vote: which must mean that a large proportion of women voted for him in spite of him being a self-confessed sexual predator.

It's a funny old world.[/quote]

Betty, thank you for an enjoyable post.

I agree that the phenomenon of Trump is beyond understanding (to paraphrase a well-known saying, except I have forgotten which saying![:$])

[lindal1000]

What a strange view of women you must have Ebaynut if you think men jeering, groping and staring is in anyway enjoyable.

[Chancer]

The sheer volume does not surprise me Wooly, your posting before is right on the money.

 

Most if not all those coming forward are those that are now famous and probably to some degree or other went along with the casting couch environment of the time, others will have pro-actively used their charms cynically to their advantage, a refreshingly honest one was Madonna.

 

Most of us will have probably at some time or another encountered women who used their charms to put it politely to get their way up in an organisation, I have far more respect and sympathy for those who refused, I read of one Weinstein accuser that said she was offered $1 million to keep quiet and she made a counter-proposal of $6 million before supposedly then having a fit of conscience and retracting it, just who is the criminal in that scenario I ask, you can be sure that the offer was not made except unless there was a  threat of exposure.

 

I have every sympathy for a young naive person who is forced/intimidated and co-erced into consenting for fear of losing their job but fear of damaging their career? that would be a potential future career that some would do anything to achieve.

 

Dont get me wrong, I hate men that act in this way, I have known several and they have always disgusted me but those who are just Chancers working on the basis that if you dont ask you dont get and the law of averages, those who have nothing of monetary value to offer just get refused on all but their luckiest day, if they are charming, good looking and non confrontational and not old enough to be labelled a dirty old man they probably offend very few, I could not behave in that  manner though.

[ebaynut]

W/B wrote,

lessons have been learned, sentences will be dished out.

O, so that's OK then, lets just move on shall we. The fact is these young girls that were gang raped by Muslim Pakistani men, whom our government encouraged to come to the UK. The girls they abused were all vulnerable, most were in the care of social services, they had no-one close to turn too, and those they did turn to just looked the other way, as they did not want to be called racist. ( why, I have no idea) but I am glad you are comfortable with this, and can now move on, and not have to talk about this subject.

Compere these to the women who are making these claims in the news now, most are bright and well educated, why did they not speak out. why did Angeline Jodie for example not tell her father?

I have sure he would have had 'words' with Harvey.

If anyone had groped any of the girls at school when I was there, they would not have been able to speak for a hour, such a gutless generation we are becoming for sure.

[woolybanana]

ebaynut, you sound more like Trump and Farage every day and believe me that is not a compliment.

Moving on means that safeguards are being designed and put in place, victims are being listened to, criminals caught and sentenced. It will take time.

Once a problem has been identified, we as a society, have the possibility of doing something about it.

[ebaynut]

It is a compliment W/B, believe me, and I thank you for it ;-)

Anyway, the good thing about all this coming out now, is the Liberal Elite in Hollywood will be shown up for the true scum most are, I wonder if HRC will be speaking up for them at their trials?

[woolybanana]

Perhaps some of them will speak for Trump at his trial!