French tax, very curious

[woolybanana]

Well, just looked back over my tax returns for the last few years and, damn me, they have never been the same for two years running despite the income being broadly similar.

Last year I paid a fair bit but this year none at all, not even social charges apparently.

It does make planning difficult, but why the discrepancies?

[JohnFB]

This year was an annee blanche as they switch to pay as you go. You will be being preleved on this 2019 income in 2019. So they decided that it would be unfair to bill you tax on 2018 income in 2019. If you follow the drift.

Enjoy JFB

[woolybanana]

Thank you John, most kind.

[idun]

But won't you have to pay later this year..... as everyone else is already paying for on  this year's income????  This is all very strange.

[mint]

Well, I haven't had any année blanche.  Prélèvement taken out every month as they have done for 2 years now.

[pomme]

Any prélèvement you are paying now is for your 2019 tax bill. They made an estimate at the end of 2018 of what you are likely to pay and are taking that (it was detailed at the end of the 2017 tax assessment statement). It will be reconciled next year when you have completed the 2019 tax return and you will either get a refund or a demand.

The tax bills being sent out now are for 2018. 2018 is only an année blanche if your tax, according to the assessment you submitted earlier this year isn't significantly different from the last few years (this was to stop individuals taking a large additional payment in 2018 hoping it would be ignored in the année blanche).

I still had a small adjustment to pay because of higher dividends, etc causing no more income tax but some "social charge".

[slowfox05]

On a slightly different tack, we've just noticed that we are being charged under revenue a la source.  We've never paid any French tax in the previous 10 years we've lived here, our income consisting of UK government pensions, UK rental income, both taxed in the UK plus  UK old age pensions.

We think we may have messed up our declaration des impots as our income (with the poor exchange rate) hasn't increased since last year.

On 2042, we put government pension in 1AL &1BL, OAPs in 1AM and 1BM, UK rental income in 4BE &4BK and the total of government pensions and UK rental income in 8TK

On 2047 we put our OAPs in 1/11 and ticked prive and in 6 the same figures from 2042 to give the total in 8TK ie. UK rental income and government pensions.

Can anyone see a glaring error or should we make a rdv down at the tax office?

Many thanks.

[pomme]

slowfox05

This page gives a good explanation of how foreign income, including tax exempt, should be declared but how it is still taken in to account in calculating your taux effectif https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/international-particulier/questions/taxation-income-received-abroad

[Spider]

Good site pomme.

Quote from the site: "You must also file return no. 2047 when you receive income, other than salaries and pensions, which are tax-exempt in France."

The way I read that is if you have a pension/salary which is tax exempt you do not have to declare it. This is reinforced by :

"In box 8, you must mention the income that is tax-exempt in France but which is used to calculate the taux effectif and report it on line 8TI of return no. 2042 when it is income other than salaries or pensions"

Pensions you would have to declare which are tax exempt in France are, among others, those of retired UK civil servants and teachers where tax is payable in the UK.

[pomme]

I think the "other than" means "which is not".

Box 8 is just the catch-all for revenues which do not come within boxes 6 and 7

The section descriptions on 2047:

ÉLIMINATION DE LA DOUBLE IMPOSITION

Lorsqu’une convention fiscale a été signée entre la France et le pays de provenance de vos revenus, la convention prévoit des modalités d’élimination de la double imposition (voir notice). Selon la modalité prévue par la convention, remplissez l’une des rubriques 6, 7 ou 8.

6 REVENUS IMPOSABLES OUVRANT DROIT À UN CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT ÉGAL À L’IMPÔT FRANÇAIS

Si la convention fiscale applicable prévoit l’élimination de la double imposition de vos revenus imposables en France par un crédit d’impôt égal

à l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus, indiquez le montant des revenus, après imputation des charges (salaires et pensions sans déduction

de 10% ou des frais réels), sans déduire l’impôt payé à l’étranger. Reportez le total de ces revenus ligne 8TK de la déclaration no2042

7 REVENUS IMPOSABLES OUVRANT DROIT À UN CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT ÉGAL À L’IMPÔT ÉTRANGER

Si la convention fiscale applicable prévoit l’élimination de la double imposition de vos revenus imposables en France par un crédit d’impôt égal

à l’impôt étranger, indiquez le montant des revenus (après imputation des charges sans déduire l’impôt payé à l’étranger) et le montant de l’impôt

payé à l’étranger (montant déterminé page 2 pour les revenus de capitaux mobiliers).

Reportez ensuite le total de cet impôt sur la déclaration no2042C, ligne 8VL (revenus de capitaux mobiliers, plus-values, gains d’actionnariat salarié)

ou lignes 8VM, 8WM, 8UM (autres revenus). Le crédit d’impôt sera limité au montant de l’impôt français afférent à ces revenus.

8 REVENUS EXONÉRÉS RETENUS POUR LE CALCUL DU TAUX EFFECTIF autres que les salaires et pensions

Si la convention prévoit que vos revenus de source étrangère sont exonérés en France mais retenus pour le calcul de l’impôt sur vos revenus imposables

en France (taux effectif), indiquez vos revenus autres que les salaires et pensions, après déduction des charges et de l’impôt payé à l’étranger.

Reportez le total de ces revenus ligne 8TI de la déclaration no2042C.

Si vous avez perçu des salaires ou des pensions, déclarez-les directement lignes 1AC ou 1AH et suivantes de la déclaration no2042C sans les indiquer

ci-dessous.

see also the 2047 covering explanation https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/files/formulaires/2047/2019/2047_2655.pdf

[slowfox05]

Thanks to Spider & pomme for your suggestions.  We've had a good look again at our online returns and have done exactly the same as last year. 

We have put our government pensions & UK rental incomes in box 6 of 2047 rather than 8 so perhaps that's where the error lies.

Next step is rdv at the Tax Office if I can find a suitable gap in the World Cup fixtures!

Sorry to come across as a numpty but we've only got 3 sources of income and have been filing returns here for 10 years without too many problems, until now!

Many thanks again.

[slowfox05]

Sorry pomme, you were responding at the same time as my previous post.  It's down to the tax office for us because I just can't see what we're doing wrong.

Many thanks again.

[Spider]

slowfox. Back to your original post.

We have government pensions and old age pensions and I fill in the forms as follows.

2047k page 1 section 1/11

Pays d'origine I put Royaume-Uni tick both public and prive and put my in revenu  total pension government and old age pension combined.

Page 3 section 6 I put my total Civil Service pension that is taxed in the UK.

On 2042k I transfer the figures from above to section 1AL for my CS pension and section 1AM for my old age pension.

It all comes out right on the Avis and we don't pay any tax in France. Only wish we could pay tax here on my CS pension instead of the UK !

[slowfox05]

Thanks Spider,

On 2047k, page 1 section 1/11 we've only put our OAPs and ticked Prive.

Then page 3 sec section 6 have put our government pensions plus UK rental income.

On 2042, like you, we've used 1AL and 1BL for gov. pensions then 1AM and 1BM for our OAPs.

Our UK rental income we've also entered in 4BE and 4BK.

Total of Gov. pensions and UK rental income in 8TK.

We've been to our local tax office and the fontionairre we saw was confused and suggested we wait.  She thought we would get our €45 per month of prelevement a la source refunded.

We'll give it a couple of weeks and try again.