Liberation of Paris

[letrangere]

Did anyone celebrate this?  Our neighbours in Paris once told me about the day the city was invaded.  For a couple of days before they had heard the guns drawing nearer but it wasn't until they heard thousands of pairs of boots marching down neighbouring Boulevard Malesherbes that they realised it was happening.  He admitted that even now when it was really quiet he thought he could still hear the boots on the cobblestones.  Then he started to cry, as did his wife, who was normally so stiff upper lip and haughty.  And momentarily I tried to imagine what it must have been like.  But it was impossible. 

They would never talk about their existence (can't call it life) during the occupation, that was obviously far too painful.  But they did say they were too tired and hungry to make much of the liberation.  I suppose also it can't be easy to suddenly shake off fear.  M

[Dick Smith]

There's been loads of stuff on France 3 news (when not JO) for the last week, and some documentaries ( and the film 'Is Paris Burning?'). A lot of it I hadn't seen before. On the 25th (I think) there was a ceremony in Paris with moving speeches by M. Chirac and others.

[letrangere]

[quote]Sure it was the same for the rest of france and most of europe,personal tales pull at the heart strings,(maybe that is apart from spain which if I am right did not suffer the horror of the nazi,s deat...[/quote]

Oh, I couldn't agree with you more, and I mentioned this to the couple in question.  But although London and many other parts of Britain suffered terribly during WW2 we were never invaded let alone had to live under occupation, something they quite rightly reminded me.  Actually, in my experience, few French people ever want to say much about the War.  Have others found this?  M

[Dick Smith]

'Rubberduck' - don't forget that one of the motivations behind the Paris Resistance moving against the Germans when they did was news from Oradour-sur-Glane, which happened a fortnight or so earlier. Although the bombings of major cities in England were terrible such atrocities did not happen here. If there was any bilnd-eye-turning after the war it seems to have been aimed at Alsaciens who had fought for the Germans, and in the desire for national unity were not pursued.

[Russethouse]

>>>Actually, in my experience, few French people ever want to say much about the War.<<<<

I was once told it is not discussed in polite society !

[Dick Smith]

I was told that this was because one didn't always know if one's interlocutor had been resistant or collaborator... Certainly there was enough resentment flying about in all directions (especially in the possible-communist-takeover period) to keep it out of polite discourse.

[letrangere]

I remember once trying to bring up the subject of the War in a French lesson in Paris, not long after the conversation mentioned earlier.  We didn't have the German girl with us that month so it seemed safe enough.  Can't recall what I said now but my remark was, unusually for once, met by cold incomprehension from the normally voluble teacher.  Thinking I'd made a grammatical error I rephrased it.  Then I received a quickly scribbled note from the American guy across the aisle, "World War 2, don't go there Margaret".  I never have again.  M

[Weedon]

[quote]There's been loads of stuff on France 3 news (when not JO) for the last week, and some documentaries ( and the film 'Is Paris Burning?'). A lot of it I hadn't seen before. On the 25th (I think) there ...[/quote]

There is an excellent book entitled "Is Paris Burning" about the German occupation of Paris and it seems the world owes much gratitude to the German OC of Paris in that he disregarded  orders from Hitler to blow all the bridges of the city and its historical buildings.

[Dick Smith]

The book is by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre - the film was based upon it (screenplay by Gore Vidal, I believe).

[Jon 1]

During the television coverage a French female historian claimed that France may have been liberated by the British and Americans, but that Paris was liberated by the Parisiens themselves.

Two British historians subsequently asserted that the above claim was a myth, contrived to save French sensibilities.

It seems that about 1000 French did die in the Paris uprising, but apparently the Germans were trying to retreat at that point and looking for a way out.  British and American divisions were heavily in evidence.

Since the programme I have resolved to find a good literary source to get more detailed information.

It is my impression that the French generally do not wish to accept or acknowledge the input and sacrifice of their Anglo Saxon neighbours.

[Miki]

It is my impression that the French generally do not wish to accept or acknowledge the input and sacrifice of their Anglo Saxon neighbours.

I have to admit that I have all too often found that to be so true. I have had the story of how we run out on them, how we never came in their real hour of need and how the Americans and their resistance won the war.

Recently it has got even better, how they would have won the war in the end anyway, without any help at all from anyone and that is how history has been taught in schools, so it must be true

[Dick Smith]

Those were the Alsaciens of whom I spoke, the ones who were let go, and that was done for reasons of national unity. Most of the Das Reich division were themselves killed at Mortain in August 1944. There was a degree of ambiguity as to whether or not the Alsaciens were volunteers or conscripts, which allowed for some wiggle room.

The Paris resistance was very active in attacking the Germans for some days before they (the Germans) decided to leave. Actions began on August 15th and the Germans surrendered on the 25th. For the chronology see

http://www.paris.org/Expos/Liberation/chronoA.html

By M CdG do you mean Charles de Gaulle? (He was a General, not a Mareschal or a Monsieur). I think his attitude towards the USA was somewhat more nuanced than you suggest. He was, however, keen that Paris should be liberated by French troops (in fact those headed by General Leclerc), 'supported' by Allied troops (the British and Empire forces were around there too). He was also struggling against internal enemies (the communists) and yet wanted France to remain mistress of her own destiny, so he played up the cross of Lorraine, Jeanne d'Arc etc and France's own rôle.

As de Gaulle put it:

"Paris ! Paris outragé ! Paris brisé ! Paris martyrisé ! Mais Paris libéré ! Libéré par lui-même, libéré par son peuple avec le concours des armées de la France, avec l'appui et le concours de la France tout entière, de la France qui se bat, de la seule France, de la vraie France, de la France éternelle."

We should also remember the events at Tulle and M****illes, amongst many other atrocities, to understand the ambiguity of French feeling about the occupation.

[Dick Smith]

Oh come on - I put the word 'M a r s e i l l e s' into a post and it gets censored! Now the French national anthem is the Asteriskaise? My ****. (I did that one for you).