Terri Schiavo

[Teamedup]

This tradgedy that is playing out in the United States has meant that we have been discussing living wills. As far  as I know one cannot make a living will in France.

[RayB]

[quote]This tradgedy that is playing out in the United States has meant that we have been discussing living wills. As far as I know one cannot make a living will in France.[/quote]

I wonder if anyone knows what the practice is of placing people, in her condition, on such things as feeding tubes here in France.

In the US when my mother was dying (83 yo) of car accident injuries, the doctor consulted my brother and I asking if we wished them to sustain her. He warned that we had the choice of 'plugging her in' but once done we could not change our minds.

[SaligoBay]

Ray, do you remember the Vincent Humbert case here in France a couple of years ago?   It was big big news at the time, with many similarities to the Terry Schiavo case.   Vincent's mother appeared on TV a few times after that to talk about it, and it was always very very saddening to see her.

Here's what happened, for anyone who missed it: http://www.worldrtd.net/news/world/?id=598

Sorry I don't have anything more useful to offer.   My impression is that the Schiavo case is causing much more upheaval than Vincent Humbert's did, political hot-potato and all that.  I don't think Chirac put himself at any great risk by acting as he did.  C'est une aut' culture, that's all.

[Clarkkent]

The Schiavo case is very sad but I believe that the this type of decision is quite commonplace now. This seems to be more about Mrs Schiavo's parents wanting to claim her back from her husband rather than a strict "right to life" argument.

Does anyone share my view that it is ironic that this drama is being played out in a culture where, so often, life is held to be cheap? Gun culture - typically 30,000 deaths a year, capital punishment - in Florida, where the condemned are so often poor, black and intellectually challenged.

[RayB]

[quote]Ray, do you remember the Vincent Humbert case here in France a couple of years ago? It was big big news at the time, with many similarities to the Terry Schiavo case. Vincent's mother appeared on ...[/quote]

Thanks, SB, interesting article.

Now then, what is official and what probably does happen could very well be two different things. In my mother's case, the doctor gave us the decision which was not the 'legal' one but rather the respect for the individual circumstances. Both my wife and I have agreed not to be plugged in. We have not put that in writing but we will! While it may not be a 'legal' document, it will indicate our intention.

I think each case MUST be decided on an individual basis. There are so many factors involved i.e age, kind of injury, etc.

The US (and other) media has, as usual, blown this all out of proportion. I am, however, pleased to see that our judicial system has performed as it is intended to.

This last point I would like to make is: Define 'Life'. I certainly feel the laying in a bed with liquids running in and out of a body is not 'life'. I wonder how many people would trade places with her and want to continue. I certainly wouldn't nor wish to impose it upon anyone. This case should have been resolved 15 years ago.

That's my opinion.

[RayB]

[quote]The Schiavo case is very sad but I believe that the this type of decision is quite commonplace now. This seems to be more about Mrs Schiavo's parents wanting to claim her back from her husband rather ...[/quote]

**Does anyone share my view that it is ironic that this drama is being played out in a culture where, so often, life is held to be cheap? Gun culture - typically 30,000 deaths a year, capital punishment - in Florida, where the condemned are so often poor, black and intellectually challenged.**

In a word - NO! It is obvious that you know very little about our culture.

[Clarkkent]

**Does anyone share my view that it is ironic that this drama is being played out in a culture where, so often, life is held to be cheap? Gun culture - typically 30,000 deaths a year, capital punishment - in Florida, where the condemned are so often poor, black and intellectually challenged.**

In a word - NO! It is obvious that you know very little about our culture.
Ray

Quite possibly. What I know of your culture comes from its cultural outlets.

I am sure that there is a large majority of liberal minded, humane and caring people in the USA, but this tragic tale appears to have received much greater coverage (at least here) than yet another Columbine-type incident.

[RayB]

[quote]**Does anyone share my view that it is ironic that this drama is being played out in a culture where, so often, life is held to be cheap? Gun culture - typically 30,000 deaths a year, capital punishme...[/quote]

**Quite possibly. What I know of your culture comes from its cultural outlets.**

It would be interesting to me to know the cultural outlets to which you refer.

[Lesbatees]

Thanks SB for the link to the article. The case closely resembles that of Diane Pretty in the UK. She fought a long battle to allow her husband to assist her to die. Unfortunately, she lost, and died in the distressing manner she had hoped to avoid.

I personally find it disturbing that in supposedly secular countries the law in this area is still really based on Judaeo Christian ethics about life and death. Why should a relative minority be allowed to dictate what the majority can do?

I am not a Christian, and I damn well want the right to end my life at a time of my own chosing, should I so wish, or ask someone else to help me do so should I be unable to physically perform the task.

OK, rant over. Think I'll go and make a cup of tea now ...

Val

[Boghound]

[quote]**Quite possibly. What I know of your culture comes from its cultural outlets.**It would be interesting to me to know the cultural outlets to which you refer.[/quote]

Cultural outlet? Often a "Coca Cola" vending machine/films/television but never from experience.

[Catalpa]

I've been musing over why - in this case and others - it's okay to let someone starve to death. Is it utterly pain and stress free? Alright, it's... natural... but clearly it's not necessarily a fast process. I know the alternative would have to be drug-assisted euthanasia - ie, therefore currently no alternative - but I'm really not comfortable with the thought of watching a loved one starve to death over a period of days.

[Dick Smith]

I've no medical or direct knowledge, but I saw a news report on this when a doctor was asked that question, and he said that the dying person gradually slips into a coma with no discomfort. How true that is I doubt anyone knows...

[Hoddy]

Catalpa - my thoughts exactly.

I know that if it were me I'd rather have an injection.

Hoddy

[Janb]

**Does anyone share my view that it is ironic that this drama is being played out in a culture where, so often, life is held to be cheap? Gun culture - typically 30,000 deaths a year, capital punishment - in Florida, where the condemned are so often poor, black and intellectually challenged.**

In a word - NO! It is obvious that you know very little about our culture.

Ray

From Jan: Ray in incorrect. That message does sum it up. In a country where 47 million americans can't afford health insurance, where the prison population has the highest incareration rate globally and where the privatisation of social services like health care, education and prisons - all depend on who controls the enormous profits: in other words, this is why prisoners are serving longer and longer sentences and, most are poor, black and intellectually challenged! Also, the continual erosion of civil liberties and the rule of law is shocking - and they're not finished yet; watch what the US military is up to.

[Dick Smith]

As this sad story comes to an end, one question asked above seems to be answered. The reason Ms Schiavo is not in pain is the administration of intravenous morphine - see

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050327/325/ff3yu.html

[SaligoBay]

And yet her brother is quoted as saying "My mother has to experience her daughter dying in this fashion. It's not painless and it's not peaceful."   So who knows who's indulging in point-scoring in this sad and sorry tale.  And now they're squabbling about her funeral, it's worse than an Eastenders storyline.    

[RayB]

[quote]And yet her brother is quoted as saying "My mother has to experience her daughter dying in this fashion. It's not painless and it's not peaceful." So who knows who's indulging in point-scoring in th...[/quote]

** And now they're squabbling about her funeral, it's worse than an Eastenders storyline.**

Wellll . . . . almost anyway!

[Lesbatees]

For anyone who is interested.

A French friend helped me find the website of the Association pour le Droit de Mourir dans la Dignité.

url is www.admd.net (sorry, can't do links).

They have a local rep for my area, so I'm going to contact him and find out about the legal position regarding the right to refuse treatment in France.

Val

[RayB]

[quote]For anyone who is interested.A French friend helped me find the website of the Association pour le Droit de Mourir dans la Dignité. url is www.admd.net (sorry, can't do links). They have a local rep...[/quote]

Thanks for the website, Val! I think your last question is covered on the site under 'New Rights'.

[Lesbatees]

[quote]Thanks for the website, Val! I think your last question is covered on the site under 'New Rights'.[/quote]

Ray,

Believe you are right. I'm going to check my understanding with the local rep, anyway, though, just to make sure.

Talking it over with hubby this lunchtime, we agreed that whether or not Living Wills have legal status here it is best to put something in writing, as it will at least make things clear and support one's partner if trouble (a la Schiavo) arises.

BTW - read about the Pope in today's Grauniad. Wonder whether he feels quite the same way about the Church's stance on "self destruction" now ...

Val

[Teamedup]

Thanks for the link. I can't remember how long ago I asked my GP about this, but certainly not since this was passed. It is really good to know that patients do have rights now. And that was what this post was about really.

[RayB]

[quote]Ray,Believe you are right. I'm going to check my understanding with the local rep, anyway, though, just to make sure.Talking it over with hubby this lunchtime, we agreed that whether or not Living Wi...[/quote]

** "self destruction"**

Not familiar with what that is, I'm afraid. Explain, svp.

Our Doc is also our personal friend and he comfirms what the 'rights' say. Let me know what you find out, if you will.

We are off to here for 4 days but I'll have my laptop with us:

http://www.chateaudechissay.com/frameuk.htm

A Bientot-

[Lesbatees]

Ray,

Oooops!!

Its actually "self slaughter". As in "oh that the Everlasting had not fixed his canon 'gainst self-slaughter" - Hamlet.

That's what comes of trying to be pretentious.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who played Hamlet at Progress Theatre a few years ago. On the second night of the run, when he got to THAT speech, he strolled on to the stage, took a deep breath, and began, "To be or not to be? Whether it is wiser in the heart ..."

He's never been allowed to forget it.

What I actually meant to say was that the Catholic Church maintains a very strict stance on suicide. It's a mortal sin (straight to Hell forever, no time off in Purgatory). Therefore, if you kill yourself because you are suffering from a terminal illness you go to hell.

I'll post the results of my conversation with the ADMD rep here. Will be a while, though, as we have friends arriving today to stay for ten days.

Val

[Teamedup]

Yes, I too would be very interested in hearing what they have to say about it all.

 

[SaligoBay]

Sorry to raise the ghoulish spectre of money, but how would this kind of agreement affect life insurance claims?     This could make a big difference to loved ones left behind.