Colonialism

[SaligoBay]

I know it's part of our British cultural tradition to scorn our colonial past.  Now you can be truly bi-cultural and learn to scorn France's colonial past too!  

Some very interesting little details about French colonialism in this article "French angry at law to teach glory of colonialism"  http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1460104,00.html

and, if your French is up to it, here's one French view of the proposed new law: http://oumma.com/article.php3?id_article=1465   .    I'm sure a Babelfish or Google translation will give you the gist of it, even if it lacks the elegance of the original French!

Usual disclaimer applies - this is not intended to be inflammatory, merely informative, because it's something going on in France.  I will be MOST DISPLEASED if it turns into a nursery-level "but our colonialism was much worse than theirs"!  

 

 

[RayB]

[quote]I know it's part of our British cultural tradition to scorn our colonial past. Now you can be truly bi-cultural and learn to scorn France's colonial past too! Some very interesting little detail...[/quote]

** I will be MOST DISPLEASED if it turns into a nursery-level "but our colonialism was much worse than theirs"!**

LOL!! Bon chance, SB!

[Tresco]

 

'I know it's part of our British cultural tradition to scorn our colonial past.  Now you can be truly bi-cultural and learn to scorn France's colonial past too!   '

You are a rascal SB, and also the undisputed queen of linkage.

What a crazily ill judged amendment it seems to be though.

tresco

 

[Mpprh]

Hi

although the French view is that Guadeloupe & Martinique are French departments with representation both in Paris & Brussels, the local view is not so clear cut.

Both have strong independence movements. Problem is that French based unemployment payments are high for the region, hence 50+% unemployment. Local islands see marrying with someone from one of the French islands as a very good investment ! 

The islands only pay 50% of French TVA and have subsidised flight costs. You can buy exactly the same foods in Auchan, Guadeloupe as in France, but slightly cheaper. They even stock yesterdays Normoutier oysters.

Interestingly their LHD cars are EU spec, shipped from Paris, not from US as you might expect. Used cars are also shipped in from France : you may even see your local Dept No on used cars for sale !

The annual cost is enormous.

Peter

 

 

 

[SaligoBay]

Both have strong independence movements. Problem is that French based unemployment payments are high for the region, hence 50+% unemployment.

I asked my Guadeloupian friend a while back if Guadeloupe didn't want to be independent, and he said yes, but no.   The financial benefits from France are just too attractive.   He said that without that, it would be la misère in Guadeloupe.

Nobody have any views on their children being taught that colonialism was a Good Thing, the colonists were good guys, bringing civilisation to the unenlightened?  C’est le retour du fardeau de l’homme blanc et de sa mission civilisatrice, as the second article says. 

 

[Boghound]

Have you noticed how the French only seemed to have  colonialised the "arse-holes" of the world...was it a case of they wern't quick enough...or just a bit slow in realising what was going on.

[RayB]

[quote]Have you noticed how the French only seemed to have colonialised the "arse-holes" of the world...was it a case of they wern't quick enough...or just a bit slow in realising what was going on.[/quote]

**Have you noticed how the French . . . . **

Have you noticed that you rarely have anything positive to say about anything? Sad!

[Ron Avery]

[quote]Have you noticed how the French only seemed to have colonialised the "arse-holes" of the world...was it a case of they wern't quick enough...or just a bit slow in realising what was going on.[/quote]

They missed you then BH

[Tresco]

Colonialism=Bad, very Bad.

And ours was bigger than theirs.

There, I got it down to nursery level pretty quick didn't I?

tresco

[Cjb]

I am in no way supporting colonialism but what we can't do is take events of the past and judge them by today's morals standards. Of course we see colonialism as deplorable in the 21st century but at the time of the British and French Empires such issues were viewed in a different way. My conclusion is that we can say today that Colonialism is a bad thing but I'm not so sure that we're right to conclude that its past perpetrators were evil and solely ill-intended.

As for the teaching of the topic, surely any historical study should address both sides of the argument. Labelling colonialism as pure greed and exploitation by the white man does little to understand its roots and ignores the fact that the white man was a relative latecomer to the world of colonisation.

[Boghound]

[quote]**Have you noticed how the French . . . . **Have you noticed that you rarely have anything positive to say about anything? Sad![/quote]

"Have you noticed"...that you criticize a lot....perhaps euthanasia would be good for you after all.

[RayB]

[quote]"Have you noticed"...that you criticize a lot....perhaps euthanasia would be good for you after all.[/quote]

**"Have you noticed"...that you criticize a lot**

You make it so easy to do so.

**....perhaps euthanasia would be good for you after all.**

In view of the state of my health, we are seriously considering it.

[Boghound]

[quote]**"Have you noticed"...that you criticize a lot**You make it so easy to do so.**....perhaps euthanasia would be good for you after all.**In view of the state of my health, we are seriously considering...[/quote]

"Praise the Lord"!

[Dick Smith]

Actually, Boggy, you are pretty much completely wrong. No surprise there, then.

The people who came late to colonialism were the Italians (after unification in 1870) and the German Empire (created as you doubtless know in 1871 after the Franco Prussian war). The desire for a 'place in the sun' was a contributory factor in the causes of the First World War (Germany) and the Second (Italian invasion of Abyssinia). In both cases part of their resentment was against the French empire already established.

Remember that there were several 'French Empires' at different times from the 17th century (so hardly coming late). The first French Empire was in the New World, and lost (or sold) to the British, although remnants still remained at the time of the Revolution. After the restoration imperial movements were in south-east Asia and China, with Africa coming in after the invasion and colonisation of Algeria (1847). The African drive was then south (ish) allowing for internal lines of communication from Paris, across the Med to the equator.

All of which was pretty profitable (for France).

Sorry to display an education in your presence. No doubt you will now berate me with the full force of your wit (sic) for having one. Again.

[Boghound]

Who really cares about being so precise...unless you are getting paid to regurgitate facts to a group of spotty individuals...as to my intellectual ability...well...that's of no real concern to you...but you really should get out more and experience a bit more of "God's Creation" first hand and not from the dusty tomes of academia.

[Dick Smith]

Not a very good response. In fact, completely idiotic. And your intellectual ability is, I would suggest, clear to all who read your posts.

Tell me, Boggy, have you ever been to France or is Miki right about Slough?

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

I have and in fact I`m here in france as I post,boggy is right to to a point,the world has moved on and it is brussels and the expense fiddlers who are the new colonials,dicky you will know what colonialism is,the taking over of a country by an outside interest or group n`est pas?

 

[Dick Smith]

I always thought an outside interest was gardening, or trainspotting, or something like that.

Funny, isn't it, what causes you to crawl out from the woodwork?

[Tourangelle]

The world has moved on, be that as it may, the issue is not colonialism good or bad, the issue that the French government, through this legislation is trying to write an offical version of history. It means that if it does finally trickle down to the curriculums (which is by no means sure), this view of colonialism will have to be taught in French schools, and teachers will not be allowed to say there are two sides, they will have to teach this official version.

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Tour`lle that is the same thing that could be said of most of french officialdom re the way they see things.

 

[0BRIAN WOODHEADI,m here in franceddMMyyyy0Falseen-USI,m here in franceTrue]

Dicky,I`ve been here where were you,old mate.

[Tresco]

Cjb I agree with, and Tourangelle too. 

Things happen in their time and place, but the repurcussions sometimes resonate for many years, in ways that were never anticipated when 'the deed' was done.

For teachers, this must be just one more bizarre thing they have to find a way around, while doing their best to encourage learning.

Does no one else think the amendment is crazy?

tresco

 

[letrangere]

"was it a case of they wern't quick enough...or just a bit slow in realising what was going on"

 

As loath as I am to reply to one of Boghound’s postings, he does ask an interesting question.  I think the French were quite often at the back of the queue when it came to finding places to colonise.  But then we weren’t always at the front either.  After all, the Portuguese and the Dutch were in India (and Ceylon) long before us.  But although Clive supposedly defeated them once and for all at Plassey, the French managed to establish several trading posts around the country, all of which remained part of France until, what, 1952(?), certainly several years after British India was handed back.  Incidentally, Pondi is an extraordinary place as the French influence is still so very much in evidence with the neat streets, hotel de ville and kepis wearing policeman.  It’s a lovely town. 

 

And look at West Africa, anyone know Abidjan?  Until recently this was quite a civilized city, incomparable with neighbouring Lagos.  In fact, people we know in Nigeria used to go there for R&R.  You’ve got to admire the French for they seem to have retained strong economic and cultural links in many of their former colonies, to the benefit of the local population (and neighbouring expats!).  And it’s the same with DOMs and TOMs, you feel they’re almost an integral part of France, which is crazy when you consider how remote many of them are.

Re colonial guilt, I can’t agree, I’ve spent too long in India to retain any nagging doubts I may previously have had about the benefits of a British presence.  And today we even hear Labour Ministers (aka Gordon Brown) touring Africa and talking of the need to reflect on the legacy of British rule, rather than shame and guilt.

M

[Boghound]

"As loath as I am to reply to one of Boghound’s postings"

What a wonderful closed mind you have MWJ.... so this is what the true definition of a Francophil is..I was under the impression that a forum was a place to exchange ideas...whether you agree with them or not.

Well Dick...It's nice and warm in my bunker complex in Slough....at least..I don't get the weather like you must...up in your "Ivory Tower".

[Tag]

But ze Frennnccch culture iz zo superieur zat ze world shood be only too glad to receeve eet wiz open arms. Not lick ze cold calculatin anglo-saxons, eh!