Cheque emploi service

[Loiseau]

I can't believe that this hasn't been discussed in detail somewhere, but somebody was asking me about it recently and a Search of the LF forum has failed to throw anything up.

I understand how the Cheque emploi-service operates from the *employer's* side (though have never had cause to use it so far).

But has anybody ever joined the system as an employee?  Does it make life easier for you?  Has the employer somehow paid your tax by using it, or does this get you into the tax system easily?  Or is it just the social security element that is covered by using it, and declaring the tax is still up to you to do yourself?

I have waded through the USSARF (?) site, but am none the wiser.  It keeps explaining the bits that I already understand, and not the employee's side.

Angela 

[Teamedup]

Income tax is always the individuals concern in France as there is no PAYE. And so the cheque emploi system would just cover the usual cotisations and not income tax.

We have a friend who uses it and say that it is easy and they have nothing to sort out. I've never asked about all the details though, I just thought that the cheque given to the employee gets paid into their account and then when it reaches the drawers bank the cotisations are then debited too.

[Lizzie15]

I'd like to know how this works from the employers side too as I'm probably going to be doing this soon! I know I have to get the cheque book but I don't know how much extra I shall have to pay on top of the salary of the employee? Anyone out there who can help?

 

[Loiseau]

With a bit more digging, I have found some more info on it:
http://www.travail.gouv.fr/infos_pratiques/ch_emploi-service.html
with a detailed on-line booklet at
http://www.travail.gouv.fr/infos_pratiques/Pdf/Q+R_sur_le_CES.pdf
This still didn't give the hard facts about how much extra the employer has to pay, however - it just waxes lyrical about how easy it all is. 

But this site
http://www.ces.urssaf.fr/cesweb/ces3.jsp
had a link to a page:
http://www.ces.urssaf.fr/cesweb/simucoti1.jsp
from which you are supposed to be able to work out the employer's extra contribution. 

Unless I have totally misunderstood it, it looks like the employer pays quite a lot more than the amount agreed with the employee though!  i.e. if you agreed to pay someone 20 euros (including 10% for holiday pay) for two hours' work, there seems to be another 10.18 due (if you choose the Forfait) or 14.44 (if you choose Réel).  Can anybody confirm this? 

You have to pay at least the SMIC (which is 6.something euros per hour), and the jobs have to be in house or garden, on the employer's premises and using the employer's equipment (i.e. ironing, cleaning, light gardening etc.)
But the employee is covered against accidents, sickness etc, which has to be good (and even against unemployment, if they are under 65).

Seemingly the employer can claim some of this back against his own French income tax.  (Don't know what happens if the employer using this method of payment is non-resident and *not* liable for French income tax though...)

I think I am more confused than ever.

A

[Will]

I sympathise, Angela. There seems to be a lot of contradictory information around, even through official sources. I think the figures you quote, though they sound high, could be about right when you consider that they will represent both employer and employee social contribution. It wouldn't surprise me either, knowing how things work in France, if the various different organisations that issue the cheques all operate in a different way.

Maybe somebody who actually has one of the cheque books could look at the instructions to see if that makes it any clearer?

The current SMIC is 8.03€ per hour.

[Loiseau]

That's odd, Will, because the URSSAF website says:

Nouveau SMIC en vigueur
au 1er juillet 2005

Nous vous informons que les montants du SMIC Net (10% de congés payés inclus) sont les suivants :

6,80 € (base forfaitaire)
6,81 € (salaire réel)

 

I wonder if it varies from one region to another?

I agree about the employer's contribution levels being on a parallel with those paid by full-time employers; I'm sure Val_2 will bear this out.

Angela

[Clair]

This has been extensively covered here: (sorry no link facility with Mozilla)

http://forums.livingfrance.com/shwmessage.aspx?forumid=279&messageid=148007#bm151557

This is what I wrote at the time as an employee:

"There is a specific website which explains how and when to use them:

www.ces.urssaf.fr/

I am employed by my elderly neighbour as a "home help" a couple of hours a day, doing shopping, housekeeping and such-like.

There is a contract between us, as in any other employment; I get paid an agreed hourly rate (no lower than the SMIC and that is shown on the above website as well) and she gives me a cheque every month. She sends a special cheque (obtained from her bank) to the CES section of URSSAF, showing the number of hours worked, the agreed hourly rate and the period worked. This cheque allows the correct contributions to be deducted from her bank account. She also receives a monthly letter from the CES office, showing what contributions are paid on my behalf. She is my employer. She could employ several people like me and I could work for several employers.

Both employer and employee pay a certain amount as contributions.

It's very important for both to understand on what basis these contributions are paid:

there are 2 options:

salaire réel (where both employer's and employee's contributions are based on the actual rate of pay) This rate is the highest but garantees a higher return in case if illness, unemployment and pension...

salaire forfaitaire (where a basic lower contribution is made by both) which will only give out basic rights.

Each month I receive a "attestation d'emploi" from the CES office, which shows all the deductions made on my salary and lists all the things I contribute to (which I don't really understand anyway!) It also shows the actual income I am supposed to declare when filling in my tax return every year.

As a person who had not previously contributed to the French economy (except as a working sudent for 2 months a long time ago) this enabled me to get into the Social Security system and get cover for myself and my husband. When I was signed off recently for 5 days after a small car crash, I was informed that my employer's and my (small) contributions were enough to cover both of us until end of 2008..."

I must also add that the SMIC rate differs from the standard rate. It currently is €6.81 per hour.

I am happy to answer other questions, but you must understand that the fundamental use of "Chèque Emploi Service" (CES) is to be used for services to the individual within their home (aide à domicile):

Aide à domicile : un chèque-emploi-service universel

(27/07/05)

La loi sur le "développement des services à la personne" est parue au journal officiel mercredi 27 juillet 2005. Elle instaure un ensemble de mesures (exonérations et avantages fiscaux, chèque-emploi-service universel, critères de qualité) ayant pour but notamment de développer la garde des enfants et l'assistance aux personnes âgées ou aux personnes handicapées. La loi comporte aussi de nouvelles règles pour renforcer la récente loi "de programmation pour la cohésion sociale".

Clair

[BJSLIV]

The SMIC is a national figure. The two figures represent the effect of the employees contributions (23%) so though the employer pays just over 8 euros the employee only receives 6.80 euros.

Also the employer would really pay 8 euros plus 40% for his social charges is over 11 euros per hour.

There is no reduction in the charges by paying through the cheque emploi it is just a different  (simplified) way of paying.

You are right in saying that a taxpayer can offset some of his expenditure against income tax, but there is no way of using this if you are not paying French income tax.

 

 

 

 

[Lizzie15]

Oh,why is everything so complicated? I'll have to hunt around to see what other info I can find.I am a UK tax payer but will no doubt end up paying something in France as well ( this is my first year so I don't know the ropes yet)- I will need to take advice this autumn ready for both the Uk and French new tax years.

 

[troll]

Hello

If you pay smic the employer gets a rebate on social charges, which then work out at just less than 20%. If you pay a bit over the smic you don't get the rebate and the charge circa 41% how is that for an incentive to reward one's employees.

Albert

[Lizzie15]

I was going to pay 10 € an hour-does this mean it will actually cost me14.10  an hour? If I pay the lower rate it will cost me far less? As you say,this isn't fair on the person I hope to employ but maybe it will have to be?

 

[Punch]

 

"If you pay smic the employer gets a rebate on social charges, which then work out at just less than 20%. If you pay a bit over the smic you don't get the rebate and the charge circa 41% how is that for an incentive to reward one's employees."

That's right, I used to get the rebate but wanted to reward my employees and keep them on board. As an employer in France, I find this is one of the most unfair rules, that discourages the growth of small businesses. It is difficult to reward and keep good employees, or even take on new ones without the government taking more than their pound of flesh. I get penalised heavily by this extra 20% charges by paying the equivalent of 2 euros more an hour than the smic. I suppose someone has to pay for all the "jobs for life" boys (fonctionnaires, paper shufflers etc)

Paul

 

[Fantine<br><br><br><br>Susie]

As an employee (Assistant Maternelle) I can confirm the SMIC rates as of 1st July (augmented by 5.51%) :

Net 6,22 euros

Brut 8,03 euros

Coefficient 1,2905:

Salaire net x 1,2905 = Salaire brut

Salaire brut / 1,2905 = salaire net

And if you're interested I could give you all the Taux de Cotisations, but it is a lot to type out so will only do it if someone asks!

[SaligoBay]

Net 6,22 euros
Brut 8,03 euros

 

Good, innit?

I'll be looking forward to this pay rise in my July paypacket (due about August 10th, it's too exciting!   )

[troll]

Hello

You have to remember that any minimum wage system is a double edged sword. It helps the really low paid but also creates a wage norm which in some cases takes wages away from the market place. I think any responsible employer who values his employee's skills and contribution to his business will pay them a decent salary. I certainly look upon my employee's as partners, they donate their time and skill, so it is in my interest to make sure that within reason they are happy to come to work. Whilst on the subject of the disincentive to employ, the tax professional went up the more people you employed, however someone saw the light and that is being redressed.

Have a nice day

Albert

[Teamedup]

I am really glad to hear that about the taxe professional. One down, how many things to go to make it all so much easier.

[Lizzie15]

The person I hope to employ has told me that she is not sure whether there is a limit to the hours she is allowed to work under this system? She had heard that 8 hours a week might be a maximum?Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

[Deby]

Okay, Lets bite the bullet then.

Does anyone pay with these cheques and  then tops up the wage with the odd bit of cash?  Basically, the employees cotisations are covered for health, accident etc. so everyone should be on a win, win.  Of course it is not legal, but with the poor incentives around what can employer do to keep a good employee happy and enable them to eat!?
Deby

[troll]

Hello

I always pay cash for small bits of work like cleaning ect and most of the French people I know do the same. In France the law on employment is a ass If you start telling the cleaning lady that you will be docking 20% off her 30€ she will just say thanks but no thanks it's not worth getting out of bed for. I knew a young bloke who decided to deliver the local free paper for a bit of extra dosh and after the first week had only made about 40€ and then yes they took 8€ charges off him. One of the great negatives about France is the oppression of enterprise I wish we had a administration modicum of backbone. I am waiting the coming of a French Maggie T.

Albert