land on plans we signed has been changed by vendor

[suzieandpete]

We are in the process of buying a farmhouse in France. On the particulars it describes it as having 2500m2 of terrain. When we saw the farm we were told there would be extra land (2 meters along the length of the back fence, so we could use the rear access of a barn) the rest of the land followed the fence line to the side of the property. On the plans we signed, it showed the extra 2 meters along the back (where the original boundry was), but needed to be changed along the side fence, as the whole garden was originally larger. We sent the signed papers to france to be signed by the french owner. They were sent back with the changes to the side boundry and an arrow pointing to it saying that the boundry followed the fence.

When we revisited the house last week, we were told that we are no longer getting the 2 meters of land that are on the plan. On closer inspection of the plans, the vendor has put a heavy pen line where we know the boundry will be at the side with the arrow saying the the boundry follows the fence, and a faint wobbly line to the side boundry which is roughly over the top of the original boundry line with no arrow or writing. We are talking of 1mm on the actual plans. We have just received the new plans, (Which we have to pay for) they show the boundry following the existing fence, which gives us no access to the door at the rear of the barn.

Also adding to the problem, there is only aprox 1200m of land, how can agents be allowed to get it so wrong or have the goal posts changed.

We have indicated that we would be happy if we have access to the rear door of the barn written into the contract (to be quite honest we wouldn't have moved the fence anyway) but we feel we don't know who to trust. We feel hurt and angry but are afraid to rock the boat.

Where do we stand with regards to the boundry issue. Are we within our rights to question the legality of 'the promis to vente' and insist that we have the extra land on principal?

[BJSLIV]

As you say the thickness of line on the plan can be quite significant. That is why in France what matters isn't the plan, it isn't the fence or hedge, but the bornes. These are the markers at the corners or angles of the parcel of land which define where the property starts or finishes. If there are changes being made, for example the division of an existing plot,the vendor should be arranging for the parcel to be surveyed to avoid any problems in future. Without accurate bornes being established you and the notaire cannot know exactly what you are buying.

 

[Deby]

The local Mairie should have a cadestral plan of who owns which piece of land and any land in dispute.  Visit them and see.

Deby

 

[suzieandpete]

The plan which we signed clearly shows the extra land (this is the official plan). The new documents (which we have been sent the bill for and we have to agree to)have been amended, showing the withdrawl of the extra land. At this point we are concerned purly because the amendments were done after we paid the deposit and without our knowledge and we weren't given the opportunity to agree or disagree ie to just walk away. what we agreed to buy is not what we are getting. Surely this can't be legal. Also there are only bornes on part of the property we are buying, because she is retaining some of the land, that is why the new plans were drawn up.

[Teamedup]

What has your notaire said about this?

[suzieandpete]

I was just amending the previos message! Thats another thing , we still don't know who the notaire is.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]I was just amending the previos message! Thats another thing , we still don't know who the notaire is.[/quote]

So who is sending you the stuff to view and sign???  Normally the Notaire does this.

[suzieandpete]

The immobiliere has delt with everything so far.

[Will]

You really need to get the agent immobilier to help you sort this out; in most of France you pay the agency fees so this means that the agent immobilier is representing you, not the seller.

At the very least you need to get a géomètre (land surveyor) to establish new bornes to divide up the property. There is no standard practice determining who pays for the géomètre, either buyer or seller can, or the cost can be shared. It may be in your interest for you to pay for the survey in this instance.

The agent should also know the notaire that is dealing with the sale, if one has not yet been appointed than the agent needs to get one involved, preferably one who is efficient and likely to be sympathetic to your situation, rather than just one who has dealt with the seller's family for years. Although it is not normally necessary to have two notaires dealing with a sale, in some circumstances it can be beneficial (it doesn't normally cost you any more) - this could be one of them. See what your agent has to say about it.

[Ron Avery]

Right, the land size normally includes the house unless it specifically states that there is a garden/field/ land etc etc of xxx m, so you may have misunderstood the particulars, been misled or not understood the Immobilier.  How and when did you sign the compromis de vente?  Were the plans attached and marked as seen by the vendor, if you were sent them first and they have been changed by the vendor, get back to the Immobilier, if you can go in person and confront him/her with this.

I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong but how can you sign a compromis without a Notaire?  Normally when you sign the compromis, you go to the Notaire and you and the seller are shown a plan by the Notaire and when you and the vendor and any interested parties, I have a tenant farmer who has an interest, you all sign "as seen", so  everybody knows that is what you are buying.  If this has not happened then you are being very trusting of your immobilier

 If I were you I would go to France,  sort out the Immobilier and if you are then not happy, find out who the Notaire is for this sale and go and talk to them.  You really cannot do this from afar.

[suzieandpete]

we have had the geometre done (New plans). This is where the problem is, what we agrEed to buy is not what the vendor has had measured.

[BJSLIV]

But you said that the bornes no longer represented the land as it is being sold. The geometre would establish the bornes and then issue the plan. It isn't a question of the seller marking the plans that is for the geometre's job.

[suzieandpete]

When we were taken to the farm we were shown and told was included in the sale, no way could you misunderstand what was included. Once in England, we put in a offer through the agent (immobilier) which was accepted. We were then sent a document 'VENTE D'IMMEUBLE' including a plan of the property, by email which we had to print off, sign and send back to France (also a document giving the agent the power to handle our affairs). The 'VENTE D'IMMEUBLE' document was then signed by the vendor and sent back to us with the boundry change penned in as described previously we then sent the deposit to the account of the agent (paperwork showed that they were able to take money up to 350,000e). We then went back last week for a second time to make plans etc, only then we were told of the change to the amount of land we were getting. in the meantime we have had to the geometre done (New plans) because the boundries were being changed anyway. This is where the problem is, what we agreed to buy is not what the vendor has had measured on the geometre.

[Teamedup]

I think you need to get a notaire pronto to look into this. As was said the geometre marks the land out, the vendor can't do it au pif and adjust it when the wind changes. This is not good. You can find your own notaire, you don't have to use the one the seller is using and under these  circumstances it sounds like you should have your own.

 

ps the geometre is a person, (sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant by getting the geometre done ) don't know what they are called in english who mark out the land and plant these bornes which are, well on our land, metal boundary markers into the land. This role is official and no one is allowed to move these markers when the geometre has put them in place. These markers are usually shown on the plans.

[Will]

This whole thing is beginning to sound highly irregular to me. Agents particulars are one thing, English ones are vague enough but French ones are quite often totally wrong - they usually say that it is up to the buyer to ascertain exactly what they are buying.

However, signing for one thing and getting something less is totally unsatisfactory. The compromis de vente is a legal contract and cannot be changed at will by either party. If the seller disagrees with it, then it is not enough to just alter it himself, a revised contract has to be produced and agreed by both parties. The agency Mrs Conq works for always tries to get the seller to sign the compromis first, and it is then sent to the buyer for signature - doing it that way round does help to avoid many disputes.

You also say that you have paid the deposit to the agent. Although agents are supposed to have a secure account for taking clients' money, you should not pay the agent - the deposit should be sent to the notaire's account. This is something else Mrs Conq's agency insists upon, though some other agents see things differently. Ron Avery indicates that notaires should draw up the compromis, that's true in many cases, but a fully-qualified and registered agent is permitted to do this (in fact, using Mrs C's agency as an example again, they prefer to do it themselves as this avoids errors and delays; some notaires they deal with insist on handling it though). Nevertheless a notaire should definitely have been appointed by this stage. I thought (Mrs C is away so I cannot check) that the notaire had to be named on the compromis.

I feel you would be well advised to pull out of this deal, it sounds like trouble. It's a buyer's market at present, you will be spoilt for choice and should find something else as good, or better, through another agency. You should not have to lose your deposit, as the seller's action would seem to have invalidated the contract.

One more very important piece of advice - don't rely on amateur lawyers like us. We often say on this forum that it is usually not necessary appointing your own notaire in France, or using a UK legal adviser with knowledge of French property. In your case, however, I think you would be well advised to go through the ads in Living France or similar publications and contact a lawyer of your own.

[suzieandpete]

We would like to thank everyone for their help, advice and contacts. We have actually spoken with the agent now and he has given us the notaires address etc. He has also said he would talk to the vendor on our behalf in order to get us what we want. We will wait to see what happens, but looking on the bright side, at least we have found a place to get some good advice! We are going to be very carefull how we proceed, but we feel alot more positive, if not a little less trusting!!!! A BIG THANKYOU.

[suzieandpete]

TEAMEDUP I think a geometre is a land surveyor and he had to put in new bornes because the land is being split up. The problem that has happened is that the land he was told was being sold to us,by the vendor, isn't as big as we were told we were buying

[Teamedup]

If you have any more problems get your own notaire. You didn't have to take the one the agent put you in touch with and as has been said, usually it doesn't really matter. It is once there are problems that perhaps someone should be looking into your interests. It is you after all who pays the agent, not the vendor, so they should be working in your interests, I hope that they do now.

[goose]

You can sign a compromise de vente if the immobilier is registered to do so, you dont need the notaire at this stage.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]You can sign a compromise de vente if the immobilier is registered to do so, you dont need the notaire at this stage.[/quote]

Yes Goose you probably can sign the compromis without a notaire, but is that really good advice??

With some immobiliers you might be  OK, but as this case has demonstrated and more and more are finding out to their cost as sales volumes go down, there are some immobiliers in France that you would not trust to wipe your nose or something like that

You say that "you dont need the notaire at this stage"  So who do you pay the deposit to then?  And in the UK, would you exchange contracts on a property and pay a 10% deposit without engaging a solicitor?  ...........Thought not

Any problems with the land markings can be overcome at the contract signing meeting, at the Notaires (which you MUST  attend, don't leave it to anybody to represent you AND if you do not have good French, make sure there is an interpreter there or take  one yourself.)  You may find sometimes land has to be "moved about" if you are buying a fixed amount with your house, we bought 1 hectare, but the notional field was not that big, so when we actually arrived we had markers on adjacent parcels to make up the total,  Suzie/Pete, just make sure that the bits of land that you want are included in the marked up plans before you sign the contract and that you have a right of access to that barn door. Good Luck

[Miki]

Ron said ".....You say that "you dont need the notaire at this stage" So who do you pay the deposit to then? And in the UK, would you exchange contracts on a property and pay a 10% deposit without engaging a solicitor? ...........Thought not "

Ron, we have bought a few places in which we have paid the 10% deposit to the agence immobilier, with the cheque made out to the notaire and in one case to the immo themselves. You automatically engage a notaire on purchasing, either the buyer, seller or the agency themselves will engage the notaire. There is as you know, no way around not using a notaire. If you want to leave the deposit in the hands of the agent immo, then as stated ensure they can indeed take deposits and guarantee this money.

In most cases the immo has done the paperwork and only when we have bought through a notaire, has the notaire done the work.

[goose]

..depends also how much french you speak of course, the initial exchange of contracts SHOULD be a straightforward event, in this instance it sounds like an army of lawyers are required though!!