Cartoons (the sequel)

[Deimos]

Pity about the last effort as I think it is an interesting

subject – maybe raising questions about the way the world seems to have become.

I sometimes wonder is the spirit of cooperation and working

together has been lost in the world these days.  It seems that confrontation, aggression and self-interest have

replaced tolerance and understanding. 

My own opinion is that there are religious extremists in many religions,

including Christianity and Islam.  Only

last week on TV there was a program describing how in the US there is an air of

the “Communist Witch Hunt” era though with respect to non-Christians.  It said that in some parts of the US

admitting you are not “a believer” can have serious impacts on your career, on

the school your children can get into, etc..

The “West” has something of a history of trying to push

other countries around (e.g. US interference in many South American countries

both directly and through the World Bank and IMF).  Whilst I can never agree with any form of terrorism, I can

appreciate how, when the “West” invades e.g. Iraq, starts talking tough at

Iran, etc. it must play into the hands of the more extreme aspects of other

religions.

Despite the number of deaths they seem to have caused, I

believe both GW and Tony Blair maintain they are strongly religious.  Again, for some this must only help the more

extreme elements of other religions as it allows recent aggression to be

presented as a “religious war”.

I don’t know who is right in the current cartoon issue.  I certainly feel that there is a lack of

understanding of cultures on both “sides”. 

One may not move to a country and adopt kits culture but maybe one

should appreciate it and allow it a degree of leeway (e.g. in its humour).  Similarly, when tensions are high in the

world, is it wise and beneficial to prove one has the right to publish, freedom

of speech, etc.

Maybe the world is just going mad, or maybe its always been

mad.  Maybe one day the world will

realise that we are all the same species and basically al looking for the same

types of things in life.

IHMO

 

Ian

[Tresco]

I hope Quillan doesn't mind but this is his whole post, copied and pasted from the other thread, which has now been locked. I've done this because I thought it was a good post, very thought provoking and considered, and I was gearing up to reply to it, and now can't due to the lock.

Quillan, if you are not happy, delete as you wish; I know it's a bit of a liberty (ha)

I think it (along with everything else) is worthy of discussion on this forum.

I have been watching the news about these cartoons and last night I watch a program about the Worst 100 TV Comedy Moments, or something like that, on Channel 5.

The link between them all was Muslims burning French flags and demonstrating in France (French TV), films and comedy sketches about the Pope etc, and the UK media response. And finally that old chestnut of Freedom of speech.

The Muslims – It seems the more informed Muslims particularly in west seem to be upset but think the stirring up of Muslims by the ultra fundamentalist members is a bit over the top. The less informed ones make me wonder how many of them have actually seen the cartoons and if they are being told they are worse than they really are. Do the fundamentalist object because several of the cartoons demean the roll of suicide bombers and it could make it harder for them to recruit because people if the west saw them as a joke, by the way I don’t?

Worst 100 Comedy TV Moments – There were several comedy sketches near the top of the list where the subject was religion. Life of Brian (which I did not know was still banned in the US and in some places of the UK) is clearly about Jesus, then there was the film of the guy who plays Ali G (a Mr Cohen I believe) singing country and western in the states about Jews and getting the public in a Texan night club to sing along. What about Dave Alan and his jokes. Nobody took to the streets about any of this, well except for Life of Brian. Are there Muslim comedians and do they make fun of the Christian religion (or there own), are there no Muslim jokes about Christians?

UK Media and Freedom of Speech – I was wondering why the UK media never published any of the cartoons. Could one reason be because of the new laws about inciting racial or religious hatred and they wondered if they could get prosecuted, decided it was not worth the grief to find out so therefore claimed they were taking the moral high ground by not publishing. Freedom of speech is a fantastic thing yet we are told that we have it within certain limits so does that in a way mean we don’t have freedom of speech because such limits are in place. Is not freedom of speech total with no restrictions?

My Thoughts - I have seen a couple of these cartoons and thought they were rather funny but not the sort of thing to be published all round the world by the press. There is a lot of animosity between Muslims and the rest of the world at present and actions like this certainly do not make life any easier. It’s one thing having a joke and a laugh with your mates in private but doing it in such a high profile way (by allegedly professional, intelligent people) at the present time is a bit insensitive to say the least.

There are so many different ways to look at this, many of which Q, and Ian  have identified.

I remember the first 'mad mullah' we were all really made aware of (Khomeni). There were cartoons in the British press then, from Private Eye through the Sun, Guardian, Mirror etc.

Things are different now. I thought the cartoons were funny, (the one with the bomb as 'turban') on the face of it, but I never saw the cartoon which is said to have been a representation of Allah, so I can't judge really. Either way, I know that no pictoral representation of 'Allah' is acceptable to devout Muslims. Where that kind of value fits in to the secular life we are used to I don't know.

It's hard to understand the context when it kicks off in another country - i'm waiting to see what the Swede branch of the Tresco family has to say about it before commenting further, except to say this; that  I think being able to make fun of beliefs may be childish at worst, and yes, sticks and stones may break bones, but a child-like view is often a very valuable one.

[Owens88]

I'm a simple person. In my view:

Everybody should have the right to worship their religion, alongside and equal to their responsibility to fully participate in the state they live in and observe the laws of that state.

Anybody can disagree with, even take the mickey out of, another's religion, but nobody can discriminate against, bully or abuse others on the basis of religion.

 John

 

 

[Mochas]

Regarding Quillan's comment about Life Of Brian being banned in the USA, as it happens I saw this film in Los Angeles back in 1979 when it first came out.

I was doing my wide-eyed tourist bit at the time and saw it at the cinema which used to be called Grauman's Chinese (can't remember its new name), the famous one with the stars' hand and foot prints in cement. I remember that it caused a bit of a furore at the time but I don't recollect any particular protests or talk of bans.The audience - presumably not all wide-eyed tourists - simply found it very funny.

Maybe it was banned in some of the more fundamentalist areas?

[SaligoBay]

Leaping in here with both feet somewhere inappropriate.  Those Muslims who are rampaging and burning flags and threatening unspeakably scary things on foreigners, they're WRONG to react like that.   Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.   It would be wrong if British/French/German/Danish skinhead thugs did it, and it's wrong if Muslims do it.

I think we find it difficult to define a viewpoint.  Our culture talks about freedom of speech, we're cynical about organised religion, we take on board Life of Brian, Holy Blood & Holy Grail, da Vinci Code.  But we have our own taboos - it is absolutely forbidden, for example, to even hint at the merest suggestion of questioning Jews or Judaism.  Muslims, otoh, don't have this cultural protection, and feel that non-Muslim Westerners spend their entire lives plotting ways to get at them.   For them, these cartoons are proof of this.

And their reaction is, for many people here, scary proof that Muslims are dangerous and unreasonable.  The other problem is that our PC conditioning doesn't allow us to admit that there is a distinctly lunatic and dangerous element at large in the Muslim world (just as there is in the white West).  They're the ones who fuel all this, and they should be rounded up and put in a specially-created state of their own, out of harm's way.  Along with George Bush and his right-wing fundamentalist pals. [8o|]    They're ALL just a bunch of narrow-minded bigots who have never been properly laid.  Then ordinary people on both sides can get on with ordinary lives.

They've shot themselves in the foot with what looks like a great big dummy-spit.  If the cartoons were written with intent to annoy, the artist must be wetting himself laughing.  

If anyone's actually interested in the modern Muslim world, I can highly recommend "Desperately Seeking Paradise" by Ziauddin Sardar.   After all these years, I finally understand what Satanic Verses is all about!  Oh look, history's repeating itself, what a surprise...... [;)]   

   

 

[Dick Smith]

For those who can access the Sunday Times online edition there is some coverage of this isue which seems to me to be about right.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,564-2021700,00.html

There has been a lot of discussion about the number and vehemence of anti-semitic cartoons in the Arabic press, and I think this is also something to consider: we are dealing with a high degree of hypocrisy here.

Perhaps it can be summed up that in the West we will defend to the death your right to say something that we disagree with, in the middle east you shoot the messenger and all his friends.

[Quillan]

Firstly, many thanks for restarting the thread and to Tresco for copying my original post over. I have to say I was very angry that my thread had been hijacked and particularly angry with both parties but of course I can’t moderate my own thread for want of being called a censor.

OK back to the subject in hand (in reverse order).

SaligoBay – On the TV they were talking to some young Muslims on the fringe of the demonstration who by their dress were normal people who were probably 2^nd or even 3^rd generation immigrants (not sure if that’s the right word). They were wondering what all the fuss was about, one had seen the cartoons and was dismissive of them as being stupid but not worth getting overly ‘excited’ about and demonstrating threatening people, countries and burning flags.

I find the fundamentalist Muslims frightening, to rigid in their beliefs and un compromising in a modern world. I know I make sexist jokes, I sure many others do, but I am not really sexist and I have a big problem coming to terms with the way Muslims treat their women folk even in when living in the western world where by our laws women have equality.

I find the ultra right wing frightening as well especially when we have world leaders who’s attitudes towards Muslims and the middle east frighten me and also remind me a bit of the Peter Sellers character Dr Strangelove. All Bush needs is a wheelchair and he could be spot on for a remake of that film.

We have a Muslim in our village, he’s a nice chap, I would never have known till we invited him and his wife over for a drink and he said not to tell anyone he was drinking alcohol what with him being a Muslim and all.

In the forces during the early seventies we were lectured and indoctrinated about those nasty communist chappies who wanted to burn our homes, rape our wives and children and we were the last defence (just like the RAF during WW2). Now in my new found trade I get all nationalities including East Germans and a couple of Russians (never knowingly had a Muslim) and guess what, they were told the same about us. You soon come to realise that they like the rest of us and I include most decent Muslims just want to get on, have roof over our heads, food on the table and our children educated and in these ways we are very much alike. We (well those of us that do) worship god differently and like politics really it is between us and or conscious. My point is (bet you were wondering when I was going to get there) is that if I, and I suspect other normal people, can sit down and listen to the others point of view then why can’t others. I can easily see that people both Muslim and non Muslim would see that the other is trying to take over the world and feel they are at war, I can just see Bush and Blair on their stallions riding out with their chain mail, tabard (with a big red cross on it), lance and sword of on their holy crusade, very frightening. There really is no need in this modern world for such threatening posturing etc.

Perhaps if the Muslim fundamentalists calmed down and took the time to talk to us and explain them selves and started dialog people would become less scared and more accommodating. Perhaps the people who did these cartoons would never have done them because they would have realised how upsetting they were to Muslims.

Mochas – I don’t believe Life of Brian was banned in all states but it was in quite a few, I was just quoting the TV. It was also banned in Harrogate where the ban has still not been lifted, yes I’m serious, why Harrogate God (or Brian) only knows.

Owenns88 – Absolutely correct and spot on. The trouble is unfortunately in the real world many would, it seems, disagree with that on both sides. We always seem to have the knack of taking something (like your statement) that is so basic and simple and ripe it apart to find reason why we shouldn’t.

I believe in freedom of speech which is a fundamental human right. Our censors should be ourselves by that I mean you don’t go round passing comment about something that that you know will upset others in a particular way. It’s for you to make that decision not a government or anyone else. Having said that the ‘press’ also have a certain responsibility not to publish things that they know would upset others particularly if they are aimed at a sensitive group. So in some ways I admire the papers for printing these cartoons but it do think it’s a bit irresponsible and stupid but I don’t think they should be prosecuted for doing so. Likewise I don’t think the politicians should apologise for something a newspaper has done. The newspapers, realising their mistake should act responsibly and sort it out themselves. As for the artist, I bet he is laughing all the way to the bank.

[Russethouse]

'As for the artist, I bet he is laughing all the way to the bank.'

I doubt it, firstly he has caused a loss of both exports and employment in his country and secondly he has drawn attention to Denmark at a sensitive time, when Muslim trouble makers have been known to take harsh revenge upon these sort of acts. I should think he is persona non grata (sp?)

This sort of thing is just giving ammunition to those trouble makers looking to recruit people to their fundamentalist groups and incite trouble.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I find the fundamentalist Muslims frightening, to rigid in their beliefs and un compromising in a modern world. I know I make sexist jokes, I sure many others do, but I am not really sexist and I have a big problem coming to terms with the way Muslims treat their women folk even in when living in the western world where by our laws women have equality.

I find the ultra right wing frightening as well especially when we have world leaders who’s attitudes towards Muslims and the middle east frighten me and also remind me a bit of the Peter Sellers character Dr Strangelove. All Bush needs is a wheelchair and he could be spot on for a remake of that film.

[/quote]

Indeed, and THEY are the ones who should be rounded up!  Both sides!

Anyway, apparently some sense from Jordan.  A newspaper editor, Jihad Momani, has published the pictures in the weekly paper Shihane, so that people at least know what they're objecting to.  His editorial is entitled "Muslims of the world, be reasonable".

He says in it "What is more prejudicial to Islam, these cartoons or images of kidnappers cutting the throats of their victims in front of the camera, or a suicide bomber at an Amman wedding?"

Wise words for those who will listen.

Happy Sunday, everyone!  [:)]

 

[Tresco]

'Anyway, apparently some sense from Jordan.  A newspaper editor, Jihad Momani, has published the pictures in the weekly paper Shihane, so that people at least know what they're objecting to.  His editorial is entitled "Muslims of the world, be reasonable".

He says in it "What is more prejudicial to Islam, these cartoons or images of kidnappers cutting the throats of their victims in front of the camera, or a suicide bomber at an Amman wedding?"

Wise words for those who will listen'. (Saligo Bay)

Very wise, but unfortunately this editor has now been sacked.

Rooting around on the 'net I found gazillions of pictoral representations of Mohammed; those guys might as well set google on fire.

Also I seem to recall someone asking if there were any muslim comedians, and in the west there certainly are, including women.

 

 

[le bouffon]

Well,what happens next.Rioters in London get away with death threats and someone down the road doing 34mph in a 30 zone gets done,seens a little one sided.There is also in the times a good read by rod liddle.

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Mochas"]Regarding Quillan's comment about Life Of Brian

being banned in the USA, as it happens I saw this film in Los Angeles

back in 1979 when it first came out.

I was doing my wide-eyed

tourist bit at the time and saw it at the cinema which used to be

called Grauman's Chinese (can't remember its new name), the famous one

with the stars' hand and foot prints in cement. I remember that it

caused a bit of a furore at the time but I don't recollect any

particular protests or talk of bans.The audience - presumably not all

wide-eyed tourists - simply found it very funny.

Maybe it was banned in some of the more fundamentalist areas?

[/quote]

Grauman's Chinese Theatre has been the Mann's Chinese Theatre for many

years now. Mann's is a large theater-owning group in the U.S. 

Still has the foot prints and decor though.  Most independent

cinemas are gone in the big cities, except for the small ones that show

foreign and cult films.

Banning of movies, etc., in the U.S. tends to be done on a community by

community basis.  Boston used to be particularly known for banning

"offensive" material.

PG

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

  Along with George Bush and his

right-wing fundamentalist pals. [8o|]    They're

ALL just a bunch of narrow-minded bigots who have never been properly

laid.  Then ordinary people on both sides can get on with ordinary

lives.

[/quote]

I think you'll find that it's worse than that. They DO get laid and do

lots of seedy and illegal things. But they're sneaky about it and

PRETEND that they don't do them!

PG

[Hoddy]

Le Bouffon you are wrong about the death threats on posters in London on Friday and Saturday. According to the UK news the videos are being studied with a view to prosecution.

There has also been an interview with a young British Moslem saying that these people are their equivalent of the BNP and just about as important and that he hoped we wouldn't judge the whole Moslem community by the extremists.

Hoddy

[Deimos]

[quote user="Hoddy"] ... saying that these people are their equivalent of the BNP and just about as important and that he hoped we wouldn't judge the whole Moslem community by the extremists.

Hoddy[/quote]

But they (Moslem equivalent of BNP) have guns and bombs as do GW and TB and neither

side seems to be able to resist using them these days.  I am certain that one aspect to the current

escalations is the aggression from the US/UK. 

When people hear GW using words like “… must stop using violence”, then

it does not take a rocket scientist to ask “what are you [GW/TB] doing in e.g

Iraq – violence ?” (in my naïve simplifications of the world I include using

guns and bombs against people as violence).

Use of violence does tend to make it easier for others to

justify violence and it also gives them targets for their feelings.

Ian

[Viv]

I found it quite ironic that one of the banners being waved at the rally against these cartoons read 'Freedom of speech- go to hell" but these individuals were then not just using this 'right' but were totally abusing it.

I agree that the West does have a lot to answer for, but we shouldn't run ourselves down too much. People of all faiths and nationalities have chosen to make their home in 'The West' for a better life, it is their choice. I am not saying that people who move to other countries should accept everything lock stock and barrel but surely the old adage ' when in Rome...' . I know France is not perfect but if I really detested it, I would move on. I don't expect any country to adapt to suit me and it is evident that a lot of Muslim countries would not be prepared to concede as much to Christians as the West has to Islam.

There was a man on the radio on Friday, who stated we are in a position that Europe was in in the Thirties with Hitler, that every one knew what was coming but chose to think that peace and common sense would prevail. I am not saying that Islam is like the Third Reich before any one gets hot under the collar.  I don't know if he is right, but how far should appeasement go? I do think the clash of religion/ ideologies will get a lot worse before it gets better.

I

[Renaud]

Forgive the levity, but anybody else find it strange that there were a supply of Danish flags to burn in front of the cameras. Do the TV crews supply them so as to get good shots?

it seems that there is a great commercial opportunity to set-up a chain of stores selling flags of all nations throughout the Middle East, so there are adaquate supplies next time the flag burners are offended.

[le bouffon]

Viva,a point well made and lots of people in private must think the same but no one will dare admit it in public.

[Iceni]

Buffy, thinking evil thoughts is still permitted - even in France - it is voicing them that can be construed as breaking the law.

John

not

[Patf]

Watching the scenes in Beirut it looked like mostly young men running

wild and having a great time. Similar to the scenes in Gaza after the

Israelis had moved out, and even Yasser Arafat's funeral.One news

programme today had the french editor of Le Monde who stressed the

french anti- religious attitude. He said that most french muslims never

read the secular press, and as yet no demos in France, even though it

was a french paper that revived the  subject. I think the whole

issue is very frightening and shows the huge gap between western

so-called democracy and Islam. But more frightening for those moderate

muslims living in the west. Pat.

[Dick Smith]

Reading the public responses on the Sunday Times website it became clear that one young woman from the USA thought that the cartoons in question were TV animations...

Ah, bless.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Patf"]shows the huge gap between western so-called democracy and Islam. [/quote]

Can you explain this, Patf?   Why do you have to say "so-called"?   Look at what you actually HAVE in the way of democracy here, not what you think you don't have.  I think we're pretty well off really, no matter how cynical we get about Bush and Blair.  Would you really want to live under an Islamic government?   I certainly don't, I don't want to live under ANY overtly religious government.  Look how dangerous Mr Bush gets when he thinks God is on his side! [;)]

[Patf]

Saligo - I meant that our freedoms and rights in UK anyway are quickly

being curtailed - political correctness - but no comparison with muslim

regimes. And I agree with you about GB.Pat.

[Dick Smith]

In a 'free' society we never have complete freedom, for that would be anarchy. We never have (or ever have had) 'freedom' of speech, that freedom has always been circumscribed in law, essentially by an argument similar to that put forward by John Stuart Mill, that an individual's freedom to act and speak extends only as far as where to go further would reduce or compromise the freedom of another. In this case that would be the freedom not to be blown up, which can also be expressed in terms of a right.

What we therefore argue about in these discussions is the relative positions of the boundaries in different circumstances and the degree to which the freedom of the individual is balanced against that of the rest of society.

In the current case the conflict exists in that the Danish government and Danish society values the freedom of the individual to express political or religious dissent (or contempt) highly - as do we in the UK - and many Muslim societies have a diametrically opposed view, that the sensibilities (freedoms or rights if you will) of the mass of believers are paramount.

That does not, of course, excuse the appalling level of violence used, which is really about something else, part of which (in my personal opinion) is a deep-seated inferiority complex.

[JohnM]

[quote user="Dicksmith"]and many Muslim societies have a diametrically opposed view, that the sensibilities (freedoms or rights if you will) of the mass of believers are paramount.[/quote]

As long as those believers are followers of Islam!

I do find it hypocritical that some Muslims see nothing wrong with decrying other religions but get extremely upset if anyone dares say anything against Islam!

(By the way, I have some very good friends who are "sensible" Muslims so do know that it is only "some" that are the trouble)