Charlie Hebdo

[Teamedup]

DS you have been having a pop at me as long as I can remember. It obviously strokes your ego to do so. I just wanted you to realise that I am actually aware that you do it. So be my guest and continue. I do not need you to tell me anything.  If you really expect me to take your comment about being patronising seriously, well I cannot, not after all the condescending replies I have had from you over x amount of time.

If anyone else finds me patronising, I feel pretty sure they will tell me.

 

And if anyone wants to discuss racism etc, should we really discuss France and it's problems. I am lilly livered liberal in comparison to many of the people I talk to. That includes an algerian I know going on about the Tunisians. Which also means that maybe the UK is tolerant. And also makes me wonder about tolerance and if 'anything and everything' should be put up with or be accepted and acceptable.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"][quote user="jond"][quote user="viva"]

We have had Jews in the UK for hundreds of years and they

historically have had a torrid time just in the UK, the Catholics also

had a rough time. Yet we don't here a murmur out of them or the Chinese

, Greek and countless other communities.

[/quote]

Viva - what about Northern Ireland?

[/quote]

yes mentioned them previously and how they have / had a terrible time.

[/quote]

Yes, but I don't think it would be entirely accurate to say that

Catholics put up with what was done to them without a murmur...it's

just that it's not really headline news anymore, or at the moment,

anyway.

[Viv]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Every religion has fundamentalist groups, Christianity included !

 yes but they are not in esentially Islamic countries demanding this that and the other; I am sure that they would get very short shrift qnd quite rightly too.

As for the attitude 'we have never lived in peace with other religions, nothing will change' I just don't agree. We had never been to the moon before, but we have now............surely we have learned something from history. The human race faces plenty of challenges without adding religious intolerance to them.

[/quote]

Which "we" do you mean? Brits, the West or the wide world in general? Sections of the world may have learned something from History, others still deny what is true from David Irving to the President of Iran, to the Christian fundamentalists in the USA.

 

[Viv]

[quote user="jond"][quote user="viva"][quote user="jond"][quote user="viva"]

We have had Jews in the UK for hundreds of years and they historically have had a torrid time just in the UK, the Catholics also had a rough time. Yet we don't here a murmur out of them or the Chinese , Greek and countless other communities.

[/quote]

Viva - what about Northern Ireland?
[/quote]

yes mentioned them previously and how they have / had a terrible time.

[/quote]

Yes, but I don't think it would be entirely accurate to say that Catholics put up with what was done to them without a murmur...it's just that it's not really headline news anymore, or at the moment, anyway.
[/quote]

 

I was really descibing the way catholics were treated in England after the Reformation; blamed for the Plague (still engraved on a column in Latin in London exact place escapes me at the mo) as opposed to those who though formed the majority in Ireland and were treated as second class citizens.

[hardhat]

ive been reading all your thoughts,dont know who would be interested in mine but for what there worth.the cartoons should have been printed,and printed again if there was interest in them,and they should be repeatedly shown untill the muslim world learns that westeners arnt like them, dont want to be like them,i dont beleive in god in any form and it offends me when anyone in this somewhat advanced sociaty uses god to unstabalise my way of life.i dont know the answere to the worlds problems,but i do know that cencership is the first step on the road to dictatership

[The Riff-Raff Element]

...to the Christian fundamentalists in the USA...

Now, is that a group we should be more concerned

about than we are? They have a great deal of money and influence within

certain parts of the US; could they ever get to the Top Spot? The

worlds biggest economy and its biggest arsenal in the hands of people

who make Billy Grahame look like Father Ted. Could be fun to watch from

a distant pavillion...

[Alexis]

Well, well, well.

What a load of spite.  Not allowed an opinion now then?  Only Mr Smith and Russethouse have the right to air theirs.  Everyone else with a different opinion being wrong.

I see.

Must thank you all for the supportive e-mails.  What a surprise!  Just logged on after the blood clinic and saw them all.  Won't do much good being private though.  Speak out.

What I object to - hope that there are no spelling mistakes - is the fact that Christians as in Church of England have lost their 'right' to joyfully sing carols at Christmas because it upsets other religions.

Tough.  These people knew this when they moved here.

As for a multi religion family, I thought about this yesterday.  You can't get more of a mixed bag then mine.

In-laws.  Very devout Catholics.

OH.  Very lapsed Catholic.

SIL 1.  Married to a Turk who is a Muslim and children same.

SIL 2.  Married to a Jew.  Converted and children Jewish.

Me.  Methodist.

Daughter 1.  Flirting with Buddhism.

Daughter 2.  C of E.

Due to short term memory loss must re-read buckets of spite again.

I will answer the mails later.  Thank you all once again.

[Tresco]

'.....is the fact that Christians as in Church of England have lost their 'right' to joyfully sing carols at Christmas because it upsets other religions'.

Where, and are they still allowed to sing mournfully?

[Tag]

What a grumpy topic! Weather must be bad.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Alexis,

You are quite clearly entitled to whatever opinions you wish. However,

it is not reasonable to expect these to go unchallenged on a public forum. You

have repeated, in effect, that Christians are no longer allowed free

worship in Europe and yet you have not - so far - backed up these

assertions with anything factual. I for one would be very interested in

hearing of such incidents. You have also stated that the unruly mob who

demonstrated recently London had appearantly been paid to do so: by

whom were they appearantly paid?

Petty squabbles may be won by shouting loudly - hearts and minds require level arguement.

[Polycarpe]

Fundamentalists aren't just religious. There's religious fundamentalism and secular fundamentalism. We've seen evidence of the latter in this thread. The secular fundamentalists seem no more tolerant than the religious fundamentalists they denigrate. I've no time for either of them. Anyone who sees their own rights in absolutist terms is bound to stand on my toes in the end.

Moderation, dialogue and honesty are essential. 

Stuff published simply to press home a "right", or in the case of Charlie Hebdo possibly to inflame, regardless of the social consequences is playing into the hands of fundamentalists of every creed and none.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="jond"]Alexis,

You are quite clearly entitled to whatever opinions you wish. However, it is not reasonable to expect these to go unchallenged on a public forum. You have repeated, in effect, that Christians are no longer allowed free worship in Europe and yet you have not - so far - backed up these assertions with anything factual. I for one would be very interested in hearing of such incidents.[/quote]

Jond, I too have heard about (for example) UK hospitals disallowing Christmas decorations and cards because they might offend (for example) Muslim patients.   There is usually a LITTLE bit of truth in such news items.  Perhaps it is just someone getting carried away with PC enthusiasm, and the papers get hold of it and twist it.  But if it exists at all, Alexis is quite right to be annoyed at it.    I have had many Muslim friends in my life and loved all of them.  They have fun at Aid el Fitr, I have fun at Christmas.  I don't even really care if I'm woken up at 4am by them cooking before the sun rises during Ramadan, or at 1am as they finally break a 21-hour fast.

But let ANYONE come along and say I don't have the right to sing or dance or enjoy myself, I will NOT be impressed.  This applies to Ian Paisley as well as to any stray members of the Taliban that might be wandering about. 

We're allowed to mock Ian Paisley, why are we not allowed to mock Muslim extremists?   It just doesn't make sense, and it offends my sense of fairness.  

[quote user="jond"]Petty squabbles may be won by shouting loudly - hearts and minds require level arguement.

[/quote]

Nice words, but unfortunately not true.  Think of Ian Paisley (or Ayatollah Khomeini!), neither known for level argument, but both capable of winning hearts and minds.  [;)]

[Russethouse]

I think its one thing for papers to get hold of an incident which has already happened and angle it to sell more newspapers (by the way many UK hospitals encourage patients to only have the bare minimum around them now) and quite another to purposefully republish some thing to cause trouble.

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

Jond, I too have heard about (for example) UK hospitals disallowing

Christmas decorations and cards because they might offend (for example)

Muslim patients.   There is usually a LITTLE bit of truth in

such news items.  Perhaps it is just someone getting carried away

with PC enthusiasm, and the papers get hold of it and twist it. 

But if it exists at all, Alexis is quite right to be annoyed at

it. 

[/quote]

OK - so if it does happen (which, so far, I have no actual evidence

of, but let's say it does exist) it's fine to spit nails about it, but

(conversely) a muslem complaining about images that they find

profoundly insulting is unreasonable? A tiny contradiction perhaps?

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

But let ANYONE come along and say I don't have the right to sing or

dance or enjoy myself, I will NOT be impressed.  This applies to

Ian Paisley as well as to any stray members of the Taliban that might

be wandering about. 

We're allowed to mock Ian Paisley, why are we not allowed to mock

Muslim extremists?   It just doesn't make sense, and it

offends my sense of fairness. 

[/quote]

We're not in a school playground any longer, but mocking is

perfectly allowable provided that one is content to accept the

potential consequences. I would imagine that mocking Paisley in some

parts of Belfast a few years ago would have given one a life expectency

measurable in seconds.

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

[quote user="jond"]Petty squabbles may be won by shouting loudly - hearts and minds require level arguement.

[/quote]

Nice words, but unfortunately not true.  Think of Ian Paisley

(or Ayatollah Khomeini!), neither known for level argument, but both

capable of winning hearts and minds.  [;)]

[/quote]

No. True. There may be a figurehead doing the shouting (Paisley,

Hilter, Castro, whoever) but a less superficial examination generally

shows up all kinds of people quietly beavering away behind the scenes.

[;)]

[Dick Smith]

Alexis wrote:

"What a load of spite. 

Not allowed an opinion now then?  Only Mr Smith and Russethouse have

the right to air theirs.  Everyone else with a different opinion being

wrong."

Do you want to show me where either Gay or I said that you have no right to air your opinion? What I said was (and I'll repeat this slowly) you have every right to air your opinion, but at a time when tensions are high it might be a better plan to be discreet. Why are you obsessed with people banning things? Your stories are untrue or wildly exaggerated, you seem to relish any conflict you can stir up. And why do you use a huge font?

And where is the spite you assert? The only spite I saw was from TU aimed at me for daring to disagree with her...

[Viv]

"We're not in a school playground any longer, but mocking is perfectly allowable provided that one is content to accept the potential consequences. I would imagine that mocking Paisley in some parts of Belfast a few years ago would have given one a life expectency measurable in seconds"

Never stopped Spitting Image lampooning him or The Pope, did they ever do God?, I think they may have.

I know there was a big fuss in the USA in the 50s when they used a actor to play the role of Jesus because they thought his face should not be shown either. But nobody gives a fig today about this.

Yes I know,Mel Gibson's film courted controversy but that was more to do with the storyline and  yes it upset a lot of Christian people but I don't recall it leading to the palaver that these cartoons have.

[Russethouse]

 There probably wasn't as much fuss because there was no one behind the scenes stirring things up and no mass of poorly educated ,out of work youth, easily motivated to demonstrate.

The cartoons are just being used as a tool to whip up hysteria, and the more people stamp their feet and insist on what they think are their rights the more the people behind all this, win!

 

[Teamedup]

Ah dear me all hurt an injured now DS. I have been amazingly tolerant of all the barbed comments in the past. I suspect that you have thought I was too shallow and thick to realise that you were making them. As I am neither and was aware, do stop being churlish.

 

Anyone who lives in France will know all about disagreeing, rale'ing and arguments. They  are a  perfectly normal part of life here and therefore my life. I do listen to other people's point of view, and never hesitate to give mine which could simply be to say I agree with someone. Ofcourse sometimes I don't, but I am not so têtue that I don't take into consideration someone else's point of view.

 

I still standby my right to see what the fuss was about. I am sure that the demonstrators had seen these cartoons.

[Patf]

Haven't you seen them yet Teamedup? Try Googling - they are on loads of sites. Pat.

[Tresco]

[quote user="SaligoBay"]

...I too have heard about (for example) UK hospitals disallowing Christmas decorations and cards because they might offend (for example) Muslim patients.   There is usually a LITTLE bit of truth in such news items.  Perhaps it is just someone getting carried away with PC enthusiasm, and the papers get hold of it and twist it.  But if it exists at all, Alexis is quite right to be annoyed at it.    I have had many Muslim friends in my life and loved all of them.  They have fun at Aid el Fitr, I have fun at Christmas. 
[/quote]

My bold in Saligo Bays quote.

Saligo Bay, did/do any of the Muslims you know 'celebrate' Christmas?  Nearly all the Muslims I know do, in much the same way that most non practising Christians do. They buy each other gifts, send cards (which are displayed in the house), eat lots of good food, watch loads of bad telly etc etc, and some of the younger younger people sneak out for a fag at some point. Many will have a drink too. I am talking about a large extended family here, ranging in age from mid 70's to (now) teenagers, people I have known since 1989. There is a wide range of 'devoutness?' but none of them have any problem whatsoever with Christmas, cards, decorations, carol singers in the streets or even at their own front door. Their children take part in school Nativity plays, and in all other activities.

What SB said about people getting carried away with pc enthusiasm struck a chord with me, because in my experience-both personal, and from reading Asian-British websites - it isn't Muslims doing the complaining, so when someone starts yelling 'they' are doing this/stopping us doing that and the other', particularly when it relates to Christian 'festivals', I am nearly always sceptical, and think it more likely to have started with some young possibly well meaning but dim whipper-snapper who has just read a 20 year old bit of what used to be called 'Race Awareness' training material, and acted on it, badly. .

I know elements of the press do love to play up and exaggerate any example of  'political correctness gone mad', just as they like to promote myths and legends about the EU,  'they  are trying to ban village fetes',  'they have Wiped England Off the Map! - Our Sceptered Isle no Longer Exists! and so on.

With regard to muslims, this type of story also regularly pops up on far right websites, as 'news' or sent in as a 'comment', but they word them so vaguely it is difficult to track back or find any real evidence to back up the claim that it is 'them' doing whatever foul deed is the latest deemed to be 'taking over our culture'. The same thing happens here on this forum, as it has done in this thread, and (as Jond said), I don't see why it isn't up for challenge, or indeed why those challenges should be termed 'spiteful'.

Reading back through the thread I can't see what Alexis meant when she said that.

 

 

[Renaud]

Well said Tresco.

My daughter once played Mary in the school nativity play. The headteacher introduced the play as "a story from one of the great religions of the world"

[Russethouse]

What SB said about people getting carried away with pc enthusiasm struck a chord with me, because in my experience-both personal, and from reading Asian-British websites - it isn't Muslims doing the complaining, so when someone starts yelling 'they' are doing this/stopping us doing that and the other', particularly when it relates to Christian 'festivals', I am nearly always sceptical, and think it more likely to have started with some young possibly well meaning but dim whipper-snapper who has just read a 20 year old bit of what used to be called 'Race Awareness' training material, and acted on it, badly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats pretty much my view too.

My own view of religion is not that when die the church is not promising I will meet God or Jesus in white robes with a flowing beard (or should that be the other way around?) more that for most moderate members of most religions, they provide a 'code of conduct' that allows the human race to live fairly happily. Many religions have a lot in common which is what, in an ideal world we should celebrate, not focus on the differences for the sake of being divisive, selling trashy papers and raising temperatures.

PS Two books I have read recently made me think quite a lot about immigrants etc, the fictional Small Island by Andrea Levy and the non fiction book, Two Lives by Vikram Seth, both thought provoking in their different ways.

[Tresco]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

PS Two books I have read recently made me think quite a lot about immigrants etc, the fictional  Small Island by Andrea Levy and the non fiction book, Two Lives by Vikram Seth, both thought provoking in their different ways.

[/quote]

I've read Small Island too: it's a good book, and reading novels like it has (and still does) helped me to come to a better understanding of all manner of things.

By the way, in case it is not clear, i'm not slagging off what used to be called 'race awareness' training, or political correctness as I view it.

 

[Opalienne]

My closest Muslim friend and I exchange Christmas presents and she also makes me cakes for the end of Ramadan.   None of this has ever caused either of us any concern...... There's a lot more open-mindedness and flexibility out there than some commentators want to accept.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="jond"][quote user="SaligoBay"]

Jond, I too have heard about (for example) UK hospitals disallowing Christmas decorations and cards because they might offend (for example) Muslim patients.   There is usually a LITTLE bit of truth in such news items.  Perhaps it is just someone getting carried away with PC enthusiasm, and the papers get hold of it and twist it.  But if it exists at all, Alexis is quite right to be annoyed at it. 

[/quote]

OK - so if it does happen (which, so far, I have no actual evidence of, but let's say it does exist) it's fine to spit nails about it, but (conversely) a muslem complaining about images that they find profoundly insulting is unreasonable? A tiny contradiction perhaps?

[/quote]

I can't really make a lot of sense of this statement!  

Of course people are allowed to complain if they're offended, but I'm still entitled to my view that violence, rioting, and embassy-burning is not an acceptable means of complaint.   By anyone.