H5N1 in Turkey Farm? 400 Dead Birds Found

[Suze01]

The latest on bird flu is that a turkey farm in the Ain found 400 of the 11000 birds dead today.  They are currently being tested for the virus and the remaining birds have been culled. Also another farm on a German island in the Baltic seems to have been infected.

http://news.tf1.fr/news/sciences/0,,3285903,00.html?trk=100

[Christine Animal]

Mon dieu !  I wonder how they deal with it here, we saw in other places chickens thrown in big pits and buried alive, which I find unbearable.

 

[Quillan]

You will find that the French farmer, rather like he did with beaf with BSE, will just dig a big hole with his tractor and throw them in and bury them. What with everyone having chickens in the country side and a lot of rural France being poor you won't find the French running to whoever if their chickens start dying. We have also seen a few in the river (more than normal) lately on their trip to the seaside at Narbonne. You don't see them locked up round here thats for sure and there has been nothing from the mayor on the village notice boards.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Quillan"]You will find that the French farmer, rather like

he did with beaf with BSE, will just dig a big hole with his tractor

and throw them in and bury them. What with everyone having chickens in

the country side and a lot of rural France being poor you won't find

the French running to whoever if their chickens start dying. We have

also seen a few in the river (more than normal) lately on their trip to

the seaside at Narbonne. You don't see them locked up round here thats

for sure and there has been nothing from the mayor on the village

notice boards.[/quote]

If the news item were accurate (which is always possible) then this was

an intensive unit. These routinely exclude wild birds as their unhappy

inmates are particularly vulnerable to a whole gammit of avian malaise

(not just 'flu) that their wild relatives tolerate with amnity. Which

rather begs the question, if it is the dreaded lurgi, how it passed from a population of wild ducks to a contained population of factory turkeys?

Transmission the other way would present fewer difficulties as the

"effulent" from these places is often just dumped into open pits,

washed on to fields as a manure or (illegally) pumped into water

courses, where ducks and other birds would then feed. It strikes me as

just possible that this disease has already quietly arrived in

industrial food production units and it is only now that wild birds

have started plummeting earthwards that certain factory farming

intrests are going to be prepared to admit that they have a problem,

particularly now that they have a duck or two to bear the blame.

[Alcazar]

Wow: a French bird flu conpiracy theory.[;)]

Now if that was the UK, I could definitely believe it, but France? Surely not?[;)][;)]

Alcazar

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Alcazar"]

Wow: a French bird flu conpiracy theory.[;)]

Now if that was the UK, I could definitely believe it, but France? Surely not?[;)][;)]

Alcazar

[/quote]

I think that "conspiracy theory" is probably a bit strong. This would

be just sloppy and underhanded, but, given the state of much of 

the food industry, pretty much par for the course.

Conspiracy seems to me to be fairly rare in practice, simply because

it's so difficult to keep information from leaking all over the shop. That

said, I reckon the French are quite good at conspiracy - the "Rainbow

Warrior" for example. I can't imagine many intelligence services would

be up to organising a blag like that without the whistle being blown

well before the main event could take place.

[Suze01]

It's now been confirmed that it was the H5NI.

So close to where the dead duck was found, a matter of a couple of 100 metres, did the infection spread from the turkeys to the duck? If so then how did the turkeys get it in the first place when they had been kept indoors?

This is going to seriously affect the huge poultry industry here in France.  Another dose of what happened when mad cow disease broke out in the UK,  if has all sorts of implications for not only poultry farmers but industry, tourism etc. etc.

[Quillan]

I think the fact is that every country is going to get this, I can't see how they can't what with migrating birds etc. The only way to stop this geting in to the human food chain is to ban poultry from shops and there is no sign of that as yet.

As for the effect on tourism (I can't comment on the rest as I don't know) I have not seen any and we have got off to a very good start to the year, much better than normal, with a reasonably high percentage of international trade as well. There has been no sign of it mutating to humans and if it did knowbody can say how it will manifest it's self. For all we know it might just give you a bad cold. Because birds die of it we automatically assume that the same would happen if it moved to humans but it's all speculation, knowbody knows for sure.

My plan to clean up on chicken in the supermarket seems to have gone south for the moment, the prices are the same. Still a nice chicken curry tonight after the game (real sport that is, England V Scotland).

[Deimos]

One thing I have not heard yet is how “tough” the virus

is.  For example, the AIDS virus is said

to be very weak (i.e. it does not take much (e.g. lower temps) for very long to

kill it).  How resilient is the Bird Flu

virus.  Thus, with bird flu put for

chicken in the oven for a few moments and its all dies or burn it to a crisp

and the only survivor is the flu virus ? 

Where does the virus “live” in the bird (e.g. in lungs – then there are

removed before cooking and normally not eaten).  I guess the issues are what are the risks on cooking and eating

an infected bird.

After the French bans of BSE infected beef I’m surprised

some UK politicians/newspapers have not started the “Lets Ban French Poultry”.  Maybe they have.

I tend not to each chicken anyway (all the antibiotics and chemicals

added in most chickens these days).

Ian

 

[Suze01]

[quote user="Deimos"]

After the French bans of BSE infected beef I’m surprised

some UK politicians/newspapers have not started the “Lets Ban French Poultry”.  Maybe they have.

[/quote]

They have - not UK but Japan has put a ban on French chicken.  I have no idea whether they currently import any or not though!

Quillan - It would affect tourism in the same way BSE did in the UK - affected arreas were restricted/no-go zones, many tourist businesses were badly hit.

[chris pp]

The possible reason that was being given, according to the video clips I saw from TF1 news, was that it had been transported into the building on infected straw. The straw was kept under cover in a large hanger a most unlikely place, to say the least of it, where pochard ducks would go? I guess that it could have been on the feet of smaller birds but that seems quite a long shot. It also seems according to the BBC that 80% of the turkeys died before culling action could take place which sounds very rapid and very high. The question of removal of poultry waste that Jond has made is very interesting, these intensive farms must produce a vast amount of waste, not only excrement, but also all the used bedding (straw). It may turn out that one of the workers brought it in on their feet, I suspect that we will never know.

One other issue is whether the farm hatches its own birds or buys its young in from a breeder.

Chris

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Deimos"]

One thing I have not heard yet is how “tough” the virus

is.  For example, the AIDS virus is said

to be very weak (i.e. it does not take much (e.g. lower temps) for very long to

kill it).  How resilient is the Bird Flu

virus.  Thus, with bird flu put for

chicken in the oven for a few moments and its all dies or burn it to a crisp

and the only survivor is the flu virus ? 

Where does the virus “live” in the bird (e.g. in lungs – then there are

removed before cooking and normally not eaten).  I guess the issues are what are the risks on cooking and eating

an infected bird.

After the French bans of BSE infected beef I’m surprised

some UK politicians/newspapers have not started the “Lets Ban French Poultry”.  Maybe they have.

I tend not to each chicken anyway (all the antibiotics and chemicals

added in most chickens these days).

Ian

 

[/quote]

From what I remember, 'flu viruses are not particularly robust - they

dry out quite easily and would be quickly deactivated by cooking. There

could be some danger from butchering your own birds though: I certainly

will not be slaughtering any of ours for the table for the time being,

though I would be happy to buy chicken and duck. One of the things that

made the 1918/19 pandemic so virulent, it is thought by some, is that

that virus was at the more robust end of the spectrum, so it could

survive a few moments longer outside of a host before drying out. Hence

a sneeze could potentially infect more people than would be normally

affected.Viruses are not really alive, so "killing" is rather a

misleading term.

Someone has already mentioned the rôle of pigs in all this - swine are

vulnerable to both human and avian 'flu strains (poor little buggers),

hence they can be the incubator for a mutated strain that takes

elements of both. South China has historically been the seat of new

human strains as the close proximity in which humans, ducks and pigs

live together in that humid region provides ideal conditions for

cross-infection. However, that does not mean that a mutation could not

happen elsewhere. There is no proven incidence, as far as I can

find, of an avain virus mutating in humans directly to produce a

transmittable strain, which doesn't mean that couldn't happen but that

it is unlikely to.

Once / if a human strain of this particular virus emerges, and as I

recall, large scale production of a vaccine would take around 6 months

- maybe less if enough resources were thrown at it. Using the avian

vaccine in humans might produce some resistance to the avian strain, I

suppose, but good hygine will be a far better approach to avoiding

infection.

I notice that every domestic fowl in this commune seems to have

vanished under some kind of shelter since our mayor posted a notice to

us all on Thursday.

[Viv]

Do you think that the virus could be passed on from an infected chicken via its eggs?

I don't mean by the droppings that get stuck to the shells, but actually within the egg itself?  I just wondered because certain categories of people are advised not to eat raw eggs at the best of times because of the possible risk to their health, could this virus be transmitted this way also?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="viva"]

Do you think that the virus could be passed on from an infected chicken via its eggs?

I don't mean by the droppings that get stuck to the shells, but

actually within the egg itself?  I just wondered because certain

categories of people are advised not to eat raw eggs at the best of

times because of the possible risk to their health, could this virus be

transmitted this way also?

[/quote]

I have an interest in virology (well, everyone has to have a hobby)

that comes from my university days, but I am far (other side of the

hill) from being any kind of expert.

However, as far as I know, eggs should present no problem whatsoever, because:

- Eggs tend to become contaminated (if at all) with microbes from the

digestive tract of chickens, rather than elsewhere - hence possible

problems with salmonela;

- Chickens with 'flu would be very unlikely to lay any eggs.

Interestingly, eggs would be used in prepartions to cultive the vaccine

to 'flu, but they have to be very carefully innoculated to be used for

this purpose.

[Iceni]

[quote user="chris pp"]

The possible reason that was being given, according to the video clips I saw from TF1 news, was that it had been transported into the building on infected straw.......It may turn out that one of the workers brought it in on their feet, I suspect that we will never know.

Chris

[/quote]

One of the key methods to try and prevent the spead of fowl pest, swine fever, foot and mouth etc is the old fashioned welly bath on entering/leaving affected premises and areas. One wonders if this is too low tech for 2006 ?

John

not

[Lori]

Iceni - I've been wondering why this issue has not been discussed by

the authorities already..??  I know it is a different maladie, but

when my collie was a puppy, his second vaccination against the PARVO

virus was given to close to the first and therefore cancelled out

(thats what the VET said anyway).  He never left our garden and no

other dogs came in as it is closed, but he got PARVO (a horrid virus)

which after being hospitalised for two months, he survived.  When

I explained to the vet that he had never been outside our garden in the

6 months we had had him, he told us that one of us probably brought it

into the home/garden on our shoes or tires from the car. 

Can this not be done with bird flu too??  Don't seem to hear the authorities talking about this.

[Tourangelle]

On the news they said there is disinfectant to walk through and to

drive through and there is an exclusion zone around the affected

areas.  Only residents are allowed in and there are loads of

gendarmes making sure that nobody else gets in.  It sounds like

what they did in the UK for foot and mouth.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Iceni"][quote user="chris pp"]

The possible reason that was being given, according to the video clips I saw from TF1 news, was that it had been transported into the building on infected straw.......It may turn out that one of the workers brought it in on their feet, I suspect that we will never know.

Chris

[/quote]

One of the key methods to try and prevent the spead of fowl pest, swine fever, foot and mouth etc is the old fashioned welly bath on entering/leaving affected premises and areas. One wonders if this is too low tech for 2006 ?

John

not

[/quote]

What I heard yesterday was that the turkeys had already been ill and the vet suggested that the straw should be cleaned out and replaced. It is thought that the 'clean' straw was contaminated by wild birds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brilec]

Has anyone come up with any idea about the length of the incubation period with this virus?

[Dick Smith]

3 to 7 days - do a Google search on >bird flu incubation<<

[chris pp]

The point I was making is that Common Pochard ducks are well known to stay on the water, rarely venturing on land, if they do go on land it is only within a couple of metres of the waters edges.

The straw was stored in a large hanger, under cover, near to the "factory" where the turkeys were kept. Now, it seems more than possible to me that someone went to the lake to see what the situation was, had a walk around and then went back and entered the building - bingo!

Chris

[Patf]

We have three mallards who live on or around our lake and they seemed

to be under attack today by two strange ducks, or wild geese? I hope

not. I went down to investigate and these strangers flew off screaming

loudly . I'm trying not to worry as there a several lakes around here

and their resident ducks tend to go visiting then return home. I hope

that's all it was. I don't think it's the season for migration at the

moment.  Pat.

[Iceni]

At this time of year it is probably sex or maybe the lack of it ?

John

not

[chris pp]

I'm not sure where you are Patf, western France?   Anyway, any migratory ducks, 99.9% at any rate, that are presently in France should have been here since early winter and will be moving away soon. The birds that will be arriving here (and some already have) from Africa, Spain, Portugal are not wildfowl. There will be some seabirds and waders in the coastal regions.

The squabble was more likely territorial at this time of year, as John said S.E.X, always an issue.

Chris

[Brilec]

So where did the Pochard contract this virus Chris? The timeline I saw on our TV in the UK suggested that both the Pochard and the Turkeys became ill at about the same time. Considering that 80% of the turkey flock died before they could be culled, it suggests that the virus was in there for a little while. So is there a possibility that the pochard contracted it from the turkeys????