Re: For the Record

[Dick Smith]

 You may have noticed, Ron, that the people opposing your point of view are still doing it relatively civilly.

There was more to that argument than meets the eye. I actually believe that Miki may have been being wound up by someone in authority over that.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="viva"]

This forum has apparently 6000 members, only a teeny proportion are voicing there support/ anger.

[/quote]

But there aren't 6000 active members.  There seems to be plenty support for Miki among the regulars, and it's the regulars who make a forum, not the thousands of lurkers who never post.

[Ron Avery]

I haven't seen anyone opposing my "point of view" as you put it, Dick, just people supporting Miki's reinstatement on the basis of being told,  by you mostly, he made a joke and got banned.

I am just putting in some background information for the casual viewers to balance the spin about  "he got banned because he posted a joke", which you know is not the case.

As for being civil, do you think being told "get over it " is being civil?  Perhaps you can explain that comment,  its not an expression I have heard since trying to do the high jump at primary school.[:)] 

[Tresco]

But Leslauriers, apart from some (I think few?) people who never liked the idea of mods in the first place, there has never been any doubt that the mods were both  members and moderators until recently. No one could call that an easy task, but it seemed to cause very few problems until recently. This is just my perspective.

Yes, a couple of newcomers seemed surprised to realise they had actually been arguing with a mod, but as the mod concerned had not donned their  mod 'hat' that could be forgiven, and it didn't matter anyway, because the mod was posting as a member, which they are. I think the mods did fine until recently, and I also hope everything will be fine in the end.

I can't see that the forum can go on without unpaid mods. That's work, unpaid. I've done plenty in my time and if you are also trying to earn a living it is a bu**er. As I understand it the forum could have closed a couple of years ago if people hadn't either stepped up, or been asked to be mods and agreed.

But, however much the mods say 'from now on we are going to enforce the rules that were always there in the first place', the mods have said they all agreed to the ban, based on things going back several months, yet just a few weeks or even days ago all seemed well, and another member has said the new mod indicated that they made the decision, and acted alone. Mixed messages?

Ron, while I appreciate the fact that you picked up on Le Bouffons attitude to certain members, I don't see how you can possibly compare his contributions to the forum to Mikis'.

However. I agree with you that the ban (and I have seen the 'banning' message) was not for the joke made about a mod (a joke Miki got a strike for!!!), but can you possibly point me to anything Miki has done in the last few days he was here, that precipitated this action, bearing in mind that I agree it was not about the joke?

I am hoping to get some answers to this and other questions from Eslier (the new mod) who invited us to ask him by pm, but I follow the forum regularly, and nothing struck me about what Miki was posting, apart from his persistent challenging of the new (to us as users) mod methods.

Ron, this forum is a lot of things to a lot of different people. It is really very easy to notch up the number of posts you make, particularly on first joining. I have often been surprised by how much peoples post numbers have 'jumped', (including my own) but you seem to be judging very harshly to me.

I also don't understand your references to people who have posted 'nothing else but wind ups on this thread or have notched up 250 posts in one month without posting one single piece of information about living in France (and  in the process wrecking many serious threads)'

Everyone who has contributed here in this thread contributes elsewhere, unless you mean Absafc, who posted a brilliant link early on to a 'home made' movie, and who also has stated his/her postition elsewhere. I think that was a rash statement you made, Ron.

Post slightly edited by me, for (non)senses sake

 

[Owens88]

[quote user="SaligoBay"][quote user="viva"]

This forum has apparently 6000 members, only a teeny proportion are voicing there support/ anger.

[/quote]

But there aren't 6000 active members.  There seems to be plenty support for Miki among the regulars, and it's the regulars who make a forum, not the thousands of lurkers who never post.

[/quote]

The question must be asked though, at what stage do regulars look like a clique ?  Especially when the 1st page of the 'Active' view can often be dominated by 'regulars' having:

*a dispute, or an argument about a dispute, or a dispute about whether an argument was ever meant.....

*some very much 'in-crowd' giggly chat, rather like MSN for adults.

Before you all hit the 'reply with knobs-on' button let me stress that both of the above are fine and have their place, especially when headed up correctly. BUT..

...   people looking for the advice on living/owning in France may feel they are not in the right place. 

 

BTW

Perhaps admin could give us some stats on usage. If 6000 members how many post once  a year, once a month, 20 times a month.  etc? 

 

[Quillan]

This seemed to die down. Then, after making a joke about a moderator, Miki was banned by a moderator who, to be honest, no-one has ever heard of. I have seen the text of the message banning Miki and it is a pretty disgusting way of doing things, nasty and condescending, really a moderator using their position to bully. In my opinion (the mod in question throws terms like 'libellous' about). It seems to me that Miki was exposing moderators a bit, and he was removed as a result.

I know what was in the PM/email/message sent to Miki when he was banned and the word libellous is not in it so if you are claiming it is then you have clearly not received the correct email/message/PM or whatever you wish to call it.

If his joke was that offensive could he not have been given the chance of apologising in public therefore showing he went a bit to near the mark .I think an immediate ban is a bit over the top.

I had many emails sent to me by Miki, I quote a couple of lines.

Me.: The issue here is that many people including other members of the forum, the moderators, forum admin and finally myself did not see the funny side or anything remotely like it. No attempt was made to apologize in either the forum or to me personally. There is nothing wrong in apologising,

Miki.: No I really cannot understand it, if someone says to me in all seriousness, they meant something as a joke, then that is how I must take it OR I call them a liar, there is no in between. We either agree I am a liar or we say it was a joke ! It really is that simple.

It is very clear from this comment that there is no room for manoeuvre. I can’t disagree and say I am sorry and I don’t see the joke because I only have two options, either as he said I see it as a joke or I say he is a liar, it's as simple as that. I am very willing to agree that the ‘joke’, if you took it at face value and assumed that Miki and I were the best of friends, would indeed be a funny. I have only published a very small amount of several emails sent by Miki to me personally and I will never publish any more because they were private. However this ‘joke’ was made after some serious abusive emails (Miki may view them as not abusive but I do, it’s a matter of opinion and like he is entitled to his opinion I am to mine, it’s a matter of interpretation) and having everything I say questioned. So when read in to the total context of events it was not funny at all and quite snide. Dick thinks (and so do many others he tells me) we should be open, I am confused, should I as a moderator publish everything I receive by email from forum members? Would that instil confidence in members, I think not.

I said, and I still stand by my comment, that there were complaints about Miki since records of this current forum software begun. There were but to be honest at the time it was felt by the moderators that Miki’s input in to the forum far outweighed his, at times, abrasive comments as many jumping to his defence have admitted. There were times when people like LB made a complaint and were politely told to go away even though his complaint technically was correct. You can’t have a person winding somebody up and when they tell them to p1ss off complain. I am not singling LB out it’s just that Dick mentioned him. There are loads of others, some deserved Miki’s ‘vengeance’ others didn’t. The problem is these people will never come forward and say I complained about Miki and was told to go away because they know they will then be victimised by the rest of the forum members and by Miki. One only needs to review the comments Miki posted about a forum member who complained recently. So should we have told Miki there was a complaint and we had dealt with it, I don’t think so because we would have got in to another long thread dissecting every facet and the complainer probably being hounded out of the forum. So it would be true to say that Miki has had complaints against him as has many others and they have not been upheld by the moderators and just a record kept and no further action taken. So yes there were complaints about Miki’s style of writing and like other issues at the time the moderators didn’t act as they should but just took the attitude of “it’s Miki, that how he writes”. It does get to a point when you think hang on we actually seem to have a few of these, there might be something in it. If it was a one off, a two off or even a three off it still does not seem so bad but when you get beyond three it has to be said there is a problem. Just how many times do you let somebody get away with it because you believe they are an asset to the forum?

Now it’s beyond my personal powers to publish any of the communications between Archant and Miki but it would seem that many have a copy of the ‘message’ as Dick calls it. So I will give you all an opportunity. Dick has a copy, why does he not publish it, is he afraid it differs from the original, I really don’t know. Now I can’t publish it because I am not allowed but If Dick does I will confirm if it is identical to the one I have seen. If there is one word different I will say so. Why should you trust me, why should you trust Dick, somebody has to start somewhere and I am holding a hand out, fine if you want to bite it off but then you can never say you didn’t get the chance. You could if you wish choose a moderator other than me and ask them to tell you if it is the same. I have read every single post and I really do wish Archant would publish everything but if they did you still would not get Miki back and many of your fellow members would leave (quite a lot actually) because they would feel that their trust has been misplaced i.e. they cant keep their anonymity when complaining. I guess if those who have complained in the last 3 to 4 months emailed Archant and said they don’t mind their complaints being published there would be little Archant could do. Likewise they could come clean and publish them themselves but at the end of the day it’s up to them law prohibits us (Archant) to do it without consent.

The other thing to be honest is that I think personally that the forum would not survive if we did publish every complaint because people have no idea just who complains about whom (some might get quite shock but that’s only my thoughts) and if we made this information available threads like this would be going on for years and the forum would no longer have anything to do with France just groups of people verbally abusing each other.

And finally, the irony of all this is that it is said that Miki was banned because he made a joke and I didn’t like it. Well that’s correct, I didn’t like the joke, did I report it, no I didn’t, somebody else did and the post was pulled by another moderator, Miki was told this. Would I have complained if it was still in open forum when I saw it, quite probably. Was Miki banned because of this Joke that he and Dick keep going on about, no he wasn’t. It says quite clearly in the ‘message’ what he was banned for and if those of you can’t see that then perhaps you have the wrong copy. I’m not saying you have, I’m not saying you don’t, I am just asking a question because I really don’t know myself until I see the message you people received.

Miki also had the option to appeal (this is nothing to do with waiting a month), I have asked if Miki has emailed an appeal and I have been told he has not at this time. That does not of course mean he is not thinking of doing so.

[Will]

I can confirm that there is no reference to 'libellous' or making jokes in the particular message of which I have seen a copy. It does, however, contain phrases like 'personal vendetta', 'bullying tactics' and 'unacceptable participation' as well as the words'condescending' and 'intimidating'. This, it seems, is the actual substance of the complaint.

[Catalpa]

As a regular user for the past 5 years who doesn't post very often...

 

So Miki has been banned and Dick Smith is threatening to 'leave'?

 

Oh, so what?

Miki being banned surprises me but, even if he doesn't return, it's hardly likely to kill or even noticeably change the forum. I do think Miki is a loss because there aren't that  many people* participating  who have the breadth of experience he does of running a successful business in France and is so willing to share that knowledge but who knows, someone else may be here waiting to step up to the mark. (*And I'm not damning anyone else by omission there).

And the le Bouffon character. If it looks like someone has an apostrophe problem + they are provocative: IGNORE THEM! They only thrive on attention. It's self-indulgent and pointless to respond or to reason with them. Anyone that does becomes part of the problem. Ban the respondents, I say. If Dick is so hacked off with the Le Bouffon Miki things... well, bye bye... may I commend to you AngloInfo Normandy. [:D][:P]

I don't think most people care either way - it's an episode in the life of the forum, just more of a soap opera than usual. Which conjours up the picture of Dirty er...Dick falling face down in the Selune... only to reappear... oh bugger! It's Sunday, it's sunny... enjoy your day... [:-))]

[Tony F Dordogne]

I think that Quillan has gone as far as he can to get the record put straight and now it's time for Miki's supporters to let the Forum users see the message that he was sent so we can make up our minds about what was really said.  Too much spin going on here, need the real message .........

Silence by the majority of registered users does not mean agreement with Miki or his defenders at all and I think that the majority of 'lurkers' or infrequent posters are just keeping their heads down rather than incur the online wrath of the few.

I'm not a great Miki fan, he's had a couple of pops at me in public about having been in the Police but I just think that sometimes he's a rude bugr who probably wouldn't have the guts to say things to my face in a pub what he says to me on line but that's life, he's a Chelsea supporter after all - remind me of Drodgba, scores some good goals but that gets lost when he performs all the time, deconstructing everything that people write, having pops at Deimos/Quillan.  And no I haven't complained about him, just ignore his posting when he gets into a rant as I do with other people who I don't think add anything to my knowledge about living in France.

It would be interesting for the Mods/Archant to let us know how many messages have been posted since this all started, comparing the Postbag/Miki threads with the rest of the message board.  If the energy was put into replying to people's queries/questions/observations about living in France that has been put into all this, it may have helped some people with their new lives.

This forum ain't a democracy, it's part of a COMMERCIAL organisation's advertising strategy.

We've all been told several times that for Archant this is an oddball Forum and that James has managed to persuade Archant to keep the Forum in this form, only by using Mods.  On Monday morning, I would imagine that James' bosses will be rubbing their hands if they want to change the format here, restrict access and moderate the Forum themselves after seeing so much activity about their rules, THEIR RULES, for goodness' sake, they're a commercial organisation and they wouldn't take too kindly to this I'm sure.

Mods, you're doing what you can to keep this thing afloat, Eslier, don't take the knocks personally, you just happened to get the poo end of the stick with this one.

If Miki's supporters feel so strongly about the way that Miki has been treated, if he's not reinstated I'm assuming that all the people who are posting here and saying that they do not like the rules will leave, as many seem to have done from the other France Forums with what they see as proscriptive rules - matter of principle of course, like the way Miki has been treated - as they will be unable to work within the rules of the Forum, have no confidence in the Mods etc.

Ok, said my bit, now getting on with real life, looks like it's going to be a glorious day again here in the SW, time for petit dej and to go to the market in St Cyprien, flower fair at La Bugue and flea market at Cadoin.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Will "]I can confirm that there is no reference to 'libellous' or making jokes in the particular message of which I have seen a copy. It does, however, contain phrases like 'personal vendetta', 'bullying tactics' and 'unacceptable participation' as well as the words'condescending' and 'intimidating'. This, it seems, is the actual substance of the complaint.[/quote]

I will agree that these words are in the message but I would also say they need to placed in the context in which they were written, they are spread over two paragraphs. Unfortunatly I can't show that perhaps somebody else would like to? Thank you for confirming the word "libellous" is not in your copy. I would make a guess and say you probably have an original but without seeing  it I can't confirm that.

[Jerome]

Is it fair that a member should now be vilified when he is unable to defend anything that is being said about him?

A few members now are taking the opportunity  to say something now, seems rather vindictive to me, surely they had ample chance to do so whilst Miki was on the Forum, so why now ? Old scores to settle perhaps ? Not a good reason is it ?

Quillan mentions that PM's are private, them proceeds to show  a part of a PM from Miki, is it out of context, is it ,or is it not ? How will we know ? We are told certain  things he has done but none are being substantiated, as we are fed stories that it is all private, sorry but that has been a well known phrase by many governemnts and authorities and it has always covered up an ulterior motive.

We are told that people will never come forward ! How does Quillan know that ? Have they told him and inded if so, can we believe the answer ?

Too many questions I am afraid and no answers that can be properly trusted, well without showing proof. So my thoughts are, that unless all these accusations against Miki can be substantially proven, then it is all rather more a witch hunt to help back up what looks to me,  to be a vendetta against his daring to continue to question the Mods.

Let's see the PM that banned him, surely if Quillan says it is OK to do so, then whoever has it, put it on so we can all see it and make our own minds up. 

 

[vervialle]

First of all its a great forum and mods do a thankless difficult job but the forum does need them.Now I am not the sharpest pecil in the box so can you tell me if I have got this right, someone has complained about one of Miki,s post directed at someone else (who happened to be a mod) was the person who the post was directed at asked if he or she would like the complaint taken further, I would hate someone to be voted off because of a post directed at me. If I thought it was justified I would have complained myself.Did the mod in question get told about Miki's posting in a pm,that cannot be right and should not happen or have I got the wrong end of the stick here.Sorry to sound confused,but it sounds as though someone is telling tales when it should have been left to the person that Miki,directed it at.I would like to add that I am not taking any sides, but Miki makes a huge contribution to the forum,and I think most people have France in their hearts and want to help people with information ect.I hope Miki comes back ,I think most of us accept him for what he is and I have always got the impression he would be first in the queue to help someone.

[Quillan]

[quote user="vervialle"]First of all its a great forum and mods do a thankless difficult job but the forum does need them.Now I am not the sharpest pecil in the box so can you tell me if I have got this right, someone has complained about one of Miki,s post directed at someone else (who happened to be a mod) was the person who the post was directed at asked if he or she would like the complaint taken further, I would hate someone to be voted off because of a post directed at me. If I thought it was justified I would have complained myself.Did the mod in question get told about Miki's posting in a pm,that cannot be right and should not happen or have I got the wrong end of the stick here.Sorry to sound confused,but it sounds as though someone is telling tales when it should have been left to the person that Miki,directed it at.I would like to add that I am not taking any sides, but Miki makes a huge contribution to the forum,and I think most people have France in their hearts and want to help people with information ect.I hope Miki comes back ,I think most of us accept him for what he is and I have always got the impression he would be first in the queue to help someone.[/quote]

If you go 6 post up (I think) and read Wills post you will see it had nothing to do with it. The problem is that only the people who have had the message that was PMed to Miki sent to them know whats in it and then we need to know if it is the original which it sounds like Will has got but without seeing it I can't verify it. The message gives the reason why the ban was implimented and it had nothing to do with a moderators post being complained about as Will has confirmed.

[Tag]

I've been off for a while so not up to date with the comings and goings in Amityville. So, could someone please tell me in words of one syllable why Miki was banned.

 

[vervialle]

Thankyou for directing me to wil's post so am I right in thinking that the comments contained within is the mods general feeling of all Miki,s posts or one paticular one, am I now right in saying he has been banned for the general tone of all of his posts.If so dont you think its a bit late in the day as far as I can see his personality has always been the same.

[Will]

The problem is, as far as I am concerned, that I have no way of knowing if what I have seen is the complete message. Dick seems to have different, or additional, information. I know for a fact that Dick is a 100% genuine person - i.e. not a sock puppet, as are so many names on forums - so I cannot imagine why he would invent anything. Because the e-mail that I have seen only came to me third hand, and was sent privately, I do not want to plaster it all over the forum, and don't see what would be gained by doing so.

As for Miki - I have never met him in person but am pretty sure that he too is genuine. I get the impression from my dealings with him that he is the type who would say exactly the same to your face that he would say on a forum. Yes, he can be an awkward b***er, and when he feels he is right he won't leave things alone. That's him, and it's how he has been since he joined the forum. As far as I know (and I stress that point) he hasn't changed, and neither have the forum rules. So I draw the conclusion that if it was just his persistence that was the problem he would have gone long ago. So there was something else that happened that brought about the ban, something we don't know and probably never will.

Thus taking sides without full knowledge of the problem, and continuing this debate, seems pointless. Though on the other hand a protracted discussion that gets nowhere might be seen as a fitting memorial for the chap?

Edit - Vervialle posted above while I was writing this. Sorry (or maybe not) for the apparent duplication of ideas.

[Dick Smith]

The word 'libellous' was in a subsequent PM sent by a moderator. No-one ever said any different. I will contact Miki and ask for the full text of the message.

[Russethouse]

I think there is a salient fact missing here. In the 24 hours preceding the ban there were THREE complaints against Miki, all about the roughly the same thing, which is unacceptable according to the T &C.

Nobody should ever feel fearful of posting because they know they are going to be attacked by one particular person, when 3 complaints are received about the same matter it seems clear that something had to be done.

 

[Dick Smith]

Now, we have one mod saying that Miki was banned for persistence and another saying he was banned for attacking another forum member (which is what the banning message says), so which 'crime' was it that the mods were voting on, as Quillan so movingly described? Or was it like those playground conversations that go 'and he... and he...'?

Miki thinks he deserves to know who complained about him and what they said, as had been the practice in the past. One of the people who it is assumed had complained has contacted me to say that he did not, so who was it, and what was the substance?

[Debra]

The message I've seen is in my opinion patronising and condescending and explains why Dick feels that Miki won't come back under the terms offered.  I personally think it's out of order for Miki to receive a message like this.  He's a longstanding member who has contributed to the character of the forum a great deal and I think it will be a worse place without him.   As invited, here is the message:

"You have received a new Private Message from Eslier

Subject: Unacceptable

MIKI

Since joining the team of moderators I have not involved myself in the dialogue that has taken place between you and the other moderators, despite being dismayed at your general attitude. Your attitude towards other posters within the forum is a best condescending and at worst intimidating. I for one, have avoided participating in threads where you seem to be adopting an intimidating presence and doing your best to belittle other forum members - I wonder how many other members feel the same ? Quite a few I would imagine from the number of complaints we receive about your posts.:p:p

You received a formal warning about your unacceptable participation a short while ago and, as far as I can see, have made little or no effort to act more responsibly. You seem to have a personal vendetta against a small number of people which is dominating a number of forum discussions.:p:p :p:p
I have no issue with much of what you post but I cannot continue to tolerate the bullying tactics that you adopt. I'm sure you don't see it this way but, believe me, this is the way it comes across. :p:p
It is the duty of all the moderators to preserve the forum as a friendly and constructive place where people can exchange views about France and French lifestyle. Your continued participation is having a detrimental effect upon the whole essence of the forum. It is with great disappointment therefore, that I feel the only course of action now left open, is to ban you from the forum for an indefinite period. :p:p

Neither I, or any of the other moderators, are prepared to enter into any discussion regarding this matter so please do not waste your time, or ours, by responding at this time. You are, of course, at liberty to make a formal appeal to the James at the Archant Admin team. Contact details can be found at using the drop down menu here: http://www.livingfrance.com/lvfra/content/contactUs.asp:p:p
It would be nice to think that you will reflect upon your situation and understand how your actions have upset others. After a period of one month has passed, we may look favourably upon any request from you to reinstate your account subject to certain assurances about your future conduct being made and your readiness to accept that you were in the wrong. I am sure you have much to offer this forum and could become a trusted and informative member in the future but that is up to you.:p:p
ESLIER:p:p


Click on the link below to reply to the private message.
http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/667401/ShowPost.aspx "

Could become?  Has anyone doubted that Miki is a trusted and informative member?  No discussion?  May look favourably upon any request after a month has passed and if he grovels enough and admits he was wrong?  I can understand why Miki would feel pretty disgusted at this message.

[Tag]

Yes Debra, I have to agree but had better not say too much of what I think of the message sent to Miki or I might be in trouble. However it does beg analysis.

[Tresco]

Debra, that's the message I have seen too, and I agree with your comments.

[vervialle]

Are you sure he really received that message,have the mods had loads of complaints about him,I am starting to think my sense of humour is on another planet, fair enough if the mods have had loads of complaints I must be missing something,I always look at Miki  and Dicks posts as the clever lads in the class that give you food for thought its always healthy to have a wide range of opinions. I think you are right he wont come back after that it was far to harsh.Out of interest out of the 6000 members , how many complaints were received about Miki? or is it secret.

[Debra]

I'm sure he received the message and I'm sure the mods would correct me if I was wrong in this opinion in any case.  I don't think the mods had lots of complaints but as it's a secret business, how can anyone prove this one way or the other?  Even if the mods told us there were x number of complaints, how would we know this was the truth and wasn't just a fabrication to back up an over-enthusiastic new moderator?

[Dick Smith]

3. Whether they were all from the same person, and if that was the person Miki was debating with I don't know. Issa secret, innit?