Smoking Ban - What do the French Think?

[Quillan]

I am wondering if anyone has heard (on the street, amongst their French friends, in local bars etc) the French discussing this forthcoming ban. The people I know just seem to shrug their shoulders in that typical French way. I was rather surprised at this given the urban myths about the French and their love for a fag. For instance does that mean all the slim French women will become fat overnight (myth one – French women stay slim by smoking). How about the PMU will it be the death of that as well (myth two – Pierre loves his beer, fag and a quick bet). I was rather expecting a bit of a riot really as the French and smoking seem rather synonymous with one another (urban myth number three no doubt). Will the smoky French jazz clubs in Perpignan just disappear?

I am just amazed that the French appear to be taking it so well I guess…….. or are they and the storm is just about to hit us.

[Dick Smith]

Or are they just planning to ignore it?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Or are they just planning to ignore it?
[/quote]

I have a feeling you might be right. I was just supprised they were not getting a bit more 'animated' about it I guess.

[Ron Avery]

As you cannot smoke on most trains and buses now and in many offices and public places in France, and, as bars, cafes and restaurants will be exempt for sometime to come, a typical French fudge, it really will not have any immediate effect anyway.  The French have been expecting it for some time and unless smoking in streets is banned which it will not be, it will have little effect on the average French smoker.  If they want a revolution they should put fags up to 10€ a packet

[:D]

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Or are they just planning to ignore it?

[/quote]

The Spanish introduced a similar ban last December and it has generally been well accepted. Whilst they are not as well known for protesting as the French they certainly like their cigarettes a bit more!

Benjamin

[Miki]

In the time I spent in Spain early this year and from what friends and

family who live there have said, bars etc simply have to say whether

the bar allows smoking or not and a notice shown prominently outside. This is what I found quickly on the net.

Spain bans smoking in the workplace (1 January) but allows bars and

restaurants in excess of 100 square metres to have a designated smoking

room. Bars smaller than 100 square metres can choose to be 'smoking' or

'non-smoking'.

I have to say, some of the bars with larger areas, from what I saw,

still appeared to have the same sign allowing smoking ! Viva Espana

eh.........

As far as France, they said they would still smoke in Cinemas and non

smoking restos (we ate in one on Tuesday !) TGV's and other banned

places BUT they did stop, even if after a slight kerfuffle. There has

been a significant drop in smoking and apart from stopping for health issues, some

of it has to be down to the large price increases in recent years.

[Chris Head]

Ban smoking in all internal public spaces, easy. It's not at all fair that non-smokers have to breath the filth.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

My neighbour was telling me that he heard over 70% of French adults

support this ban, which would, I suppose, tally with the 28% or so who

still smoke not supporting it. A significant number of people

around here seem to have managed to quit this year, including one guy

who had been smoking for 50 years (no, he didn't have to die to achieve

this). No-one seems to be overly excited about this issue- it's been

trailled so long that I guess they were all expecting it.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chris Head"]

Ban smoking in all internal public spaces, easy. It's not at all fair that non-smokers have to breath the filth.

[/quote]

It's even simpler than that just make it illegal to smoke full stop anyone caught can be hanged or shot.

On a more serious note I don't see any problem with separating smokers from none smokers but it has to be done properly. Making one side of a room smoking and the other none smoking is simply stupid, it needs a physical separator i.e. a wall. Like those extremists in the non smoking camp there are of course a few of the same in the pro smoking camp but in general for the rest of us a reasonable balanced approach is quite acceptable. I personally am quite happy to sit in a non smoking restro with my non smoking friends. If I feel the need I can always slip outside for a fag. Mind you it saves me a few bob when it’s my turn to buy as I pick a smoking restro and not so many people turn up which is their choice.

I can remember when smoking was allowed on planes. They used to have a sign on a pin thing they simply stuck in a seat halfway down the aircraft. If there were more smokers they simply moved the sign further up or down the aircraft. No account was taken of the fact that a sign does not stop smoke drifting across the seats to the non smokers. Likewise I can remember when they had smoking carriages on trains, half the time you could never get in one as it was full. If the smokers wanted to smoke themselves to death segregated completely from the non smokers well good for them.

I wonder why they don't ban alcohol as well as its far more damaging than smoking, I'm thinking drink and driving, alcohol fuelled violence both randomly and domestic.

 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Quillan"]

I can remember when smoking was allowed on planes. They used to have a sign on a pin thing they simply stuck in a seat halfway down the aircraft. If there were more smokers they simply moved the sign further up or down the aircraft. No account was taken of the fact that a sign does not stop smoke drifting across the seats to the non smokers. Likewise I can remember when they had smoking carriages on trains, half the time you could never get in one as it was full. If the smokers wanted to smoke themselves to death segregated completely from the non smokers well good for them.[/quote]

 

I remember Air Algerie's rather original approach to smoking and non-smoking. On entering the plane, you would be told that smoking was on the left, and on-smoking on the right. It was never made clear, however, whether they meant left and right as you walked into the plane or left and right as you sat down. Consequently, as soon as the no smoking signe were switched off, people were lighting up all over the place!!

Whe the Loi Evin was introduced, banning tobacco advertising at point of sale, airport advertising landside had to be removed. A number of major tobacco companies duly gave up their prime advertising spots in Roissy and other French airports. A few weeks later, these same spots had been re-let...............to SEITA.[:D]

[TWINKLE]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Or are they just planning to ignore it?
[/quote]

I have a feeling you might be right. I was just supprised they were not getting a bit more 'animated' about it I guess.

[/quote]

Where on earth have you seen a french person getting animated about something that will (or not) take place in 11 months time.  They don't see further than next week!

My husband laughed out loud when I told him of the proposed law.

[Quillan]

[quote user="TWINKLE"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Or are they just planning to ignore it?
[/quote]

I have a feeling you might be right. I was just supprised they were not getting a bit more 'animated' about it I guess.

[/quote]

Where on earth have you seen a french person getting animated about something that will (or not) take place in 11 months time.  They don't see further than next week!

My husband laughed out loud when I told him of the proposed law.

[/quote]

Oh I don't know, I remember the pension riots a couple of years back and there was a bit of a do when the fag prices went up. I didn't know it was 11 months but I knew it was next year. I rather thought it would be in January but I don't really know.

[Deimos]

Why not just stop forcing people to go into these smoke filled pubs and bars against their will. I assume people are being forced into these unhealthy places against their will as if not, one can hardly go somewhere you find unpleasant then complain that the law should be changed to make it somewhere pleasant.

What about the famous "self regulation". If there was a market for smoke free bars surely the industry would react to fill the niche and exploit profit.

I think they should ban traffic jams (maybe more of a UK problem though). Why should people be forced to sit there passive breathing everybody's noxious car fumes.

They tried to ban dogs from my local supermarket and it was only a partial success. Seems an unwritten rule that if you dog will stay in the trolley then people tend to ignore it. I wonder if people pick up their dog's poo in supermarkets ?

Ian

[PossumGirl]

If you drink, unless you drink and drive, your drinking doesn't really affect anyone else, does it?  If you smoke it does affect others.

I've seen many comments from people who work in bars and restaurants who hate the smoke, but they have to earn a living so they feel they don't have a choice but to put up with it. 

The argument that the two things are the same just doesn't hold water.  Coming from a place where a full restaurant/bar smoking ban has been in place for a long time I would have to say that it hasn't impacted their business in the least.  The city of Los Angeles banned smoking before the surrounding communities; the restaurants and bars all feared that they'd have to close down because everyone would just go to the neighboring places where smoking was permitted.  Not only didn't that happen, but the non-smoking places actually increased their business.  It turned out that most people -- even smokers -- actually preferred to spend their evening in a smoke-free environment.

PG

[YCCMB]

[quote user="PossumGirl"]If you drink, unless you drink and drive, your drinking doesn't really affect anyone else, does it?  If you smoke it does affect others.
[/quote]

 

PG, this is not my view, it's something I read in an article a long time ago, and it made me think for a minute. If you were alone as a female, walking home at night, and you saw a group of people on the corner, all drinking alcohol, or the same group of people all smoking, which one would make you cross the road? If you drink and become aggressive or abusive, or you hide your drinking and it becomes an addiction with all the consequences on your family and close friends, then of course it affects others.

[Quillan]

Croixblanches  - Well said

PG - We are not living in America (thankfully). Anyway, If you have segregated bars and restros then the bar would also be segregated with a door leading from the smoking to non smoking parts both behind the bar and in the public area. People who work there can then choose which bit they work in. I think you will find that there are quite a few deaths by drinking both drinking and driving and through people drinking themselves to death. Binge drinking is a big problem in the UK and my guess is thats its not just the UK either. I think Croixblanches covers the rest of it quite well, you might have a search on alcoholish and its effect on people and families on the internet to see just how big that problem is. So yes it does wash I am afraid.

[Georgina]

I do wish those parents who smoke in front of the school gates would stop. I am fed up of my children having to enter school through a haze of smoke.  Plus we had a little girl visit us (one of my son's playmates) and it was very sad that she wreaked of tobacco smoke and her parents have 5 kids to suffer that. It's slowly dawning on some french though I think that it is not really acceptable. Just like it did in the UK years ago.

Georgina

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Where smoking has lost its clout, according to a seemingly well

informed guest (a smoker) that we had this year, is that for most

European countries (including France and the UK) the cost of smoking

related illnesses is no longer outweighed by the revenue from tobacco

duty. Now, while it is possible to make statistics say anything that

you want, if this is an attitude that has gained currency in the

corridors of power, it would go a long way to explain why governments

are so happy to try and actually reduce the number of people smoking

rather than just saying that they would like to.

Making smoking unlawful would be of no benefit - an underground trade

would quickly build up and rob the exchequer of what revenues there are

without ridding it of the cost of treating those taking the drug, as

happens now with cannabis, cocaine, heroin, etc, etc.

The duty on booze, on the other hand, remains a real cash-cow compared

to the cost of dealing with abuse, to comparisons cannot easily be

drawn.

Another set of guests this year owned a bar in Ireland. Thay had been

very concerned about the ban on smoking. What seems to be the case in

every anecdote about this issue was true also for them: business

improved when the smokers were forced into the garden.

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Croixblanches"]

 

PG, this is not my view, it's something I read in an article a long time ago, and it made me think for a minute. If you were alone as a female, walking home at night, and you saw a group of people on the corner, all drinking alcohol, or the same group of people all smoking, which one would make you cross the road? If you drink and become aggressive or abusive, or you hide your drinking and it becomes an addiction with all the consequences on your family and close friends, then of course it affects others.

[/quote]

Well, if I were in L.A., I'd cross the road for both groups!

PG

[Chancer]

[quote user="Georgina"]

I do wish those parents who smoke in front of the school gates would stop. I am fed up of my children having to enter school through a haze of smoke.  Plus we had a little girl visit us (one of my son's playmates) and it was very sad that she wreaked of tobacco smoke and her parents have 5 kids to suffer that. It's slowly dawning on some french though I think that it is not really acceptable. Just like it did in the UK years ago.

Georgina

[/quote]

 

Everybody seems to smoke around me here, whether they are in the non-smoking area of the brasserie or visiting my house . I even had a neighbour walk in with a fag and when he couldn't find an ashtray he stubbed it out on my floor (it did used to be a bar).

However when I went with my french tutor to collect her kids from school I commented that none of the parents were smoking.

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Quillan"]

PG - We are not living in America (thankfully). Anyway, If you have segregated bars and restros then the bar would also be segregated with a door leading from the smoking to non smoking parts both behind the bar and in the public area. People who work there can then choose which bit they work in. I think you will find that there are quite a few deaths by drinking both drinking and driving and through people drinking themselves to death. Binge drinking is a big problem in the UK and my guess is thats its not just the UK either. I think Croixblanches covers the rest of it quite well, you might have a search on alcoholish and its effect on people and families on the internet to see just how big that problem is. So yes it does wash I am afraid.

[/quote]

Quillan, my father was an alcoholic and a drug addict so I do know how that affects families.  However, they tried banning alcohol in the U.S. in the 1920s, and everyone knows how well THAT worked out!

The point with the smoking ban is that no one has the choice about the air they breathe.  As to a bartender or waiter being able to choose which section they work in, I doubt that is the case in most places. 

Of course binge drinking causes deaths.  Yes, people destroy their livers.  But the issues are ones that they and their families need to deal with in most cases.  If someone chooses to drink, I am not forced to drink as well.  If someone smokes in a room where I am, I AM forced to breathe in their smoke.  That strikes me as the difference.

PG

[Deimos]

PG wrote: "If someone smokes in a room where I am, I AM forced to breathe in their smoke"

Who forced you into the room to begin with. I think you will find that you probably went in there of your own free choice. The premises were probably privately owned (often anyway) and the owner had decided to allow smoking - so what right do you have to override the legal owners wishes, particularly when you are there by your own free choice and can leave and go elsewhere at any time.

If we are thinking about the costs of "self-inflicted" conditions - what about obesity and the fast food places. You might no longer be allowed to smoke in them - but smoking does lower your hunger so maybe it would be healthier to smoke in a MacDonalds than to eat what they provide (given that the smoking would probably result in you eating less of their "food" ?

What about the health of people working in Fast Food places. Should they not be banned from eating the stuff they are selling ?

To me smoking seems only one of many habits that cause problems. At least with smoking the effects are limited to specific rooms and people who don't like it just don't go in those rooms !! As others have pointed out e.g. drinking can cause abusive behaviour outside the "room", driving dangers to others, etc.

Ian

[TWINKLE]

I don't have a choice of going into pubs, cafés, restaurants where people smoke.  These are the places I work during the colder months.  I am cooped up inside for 9 hours from the time I arrive to set up and the time it takes to fold up at the end of the concert. 

I gave up smoking 10 years ago - a year or so after my dad died of cancer.  My dad was a musicien and worked in clubs and bars to earn his living too.

My dad was not a smoker - but he died of lung cancer caused by passive smoking.

[Deimos]

To clarify, when I said people "have a choice", I meant it in a wide range of different ways. Some people walk past a bar, look in, decide it looks nice, go in and then complain about the smoke. Others make different choices. In Twinkle's case, I would suggest she also made some choices about her career. When you started singing, were all bars and cafés smoke free. If not, was it a wise decision to select a career path that means you have to spend so much time is places you dislike so much. People chose different careers and jobs based on a number of factors (e.g. the pay, how much they enjoy it, what they are good at, etc.). If the chosen job turns out to be "not as good as you thought", most people then try to change jobs.

It is always tragic when anybody dies so discussing those aspects when raised on a personal basis in not appropriate.

Ian

[PossumGirl]

[quote user="Deimos"]PG wrote: "If someone smokes in a room where I am, I AM forced to breathe in their smoke"

Who forced you into the room to begin with. I think you will find that you probably went in there of your own free choice. The premises were probably privately owned (often anyway) and the owner had decided to allow smoking - so what right do you have to override the legal owners wishes, particularly when you are there by your own free choice and can leave and go elsewhere at any time.

If we are thinking about the costs of "self-inflicted" conditions - what about obesity and the fast food places. You might no longer be allowed to smoke in them - but smoking does lower your hunger so maybe it would be healthier to smoke in a MacDonalds than to eat what they provide (given that the smoking would probably result in you eating less of their "food" ?

What about the health of people working in Fast Food places. Should they not be banned from eating the stuff they are selling ?

To me smoking seems only one of many habits that cause problems. At least with smoking the effects are limited to specific rooms and people who don't like it just don't go in those rooms !! As others have pointed out e.g. drinking can cause abusive behaviour outside the "room", driving dangers to others, etc.

Ian[/quote]

So, I suppose that only the 20% of the population who smokes will be eating in restaurants or drinking in bars.

Yes, I choose to eat out.  No, I don't choose to have someone at the table next to me  holding their cigarette in my face while I'm trying to eat my meal.  I wonder how he would like it if I started spraying a bottle of skunk scent over his food.

PG