Bugsy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="Tresco"]Gay, I think we just said the same thing in different ways.[/quote]Are you two ganging up on me................................[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="Russethouse"] But isn't that the point ? The forum is not full of people 'like you' its a diverse group - people with all sorts of attitudes and circumstances are forum members and people with all sorts of circumstances and attitudes move to France, that is clear from this thread.[/quote]Of course it's a diverse group but that surely is why both you and I can express our opinions and question others.and long may that continue........................................[/quote]Quite, Bugbear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote]Well that's all very interesting but doesn't really answer my question. To suggest, as both you and Miki have, that 'we' somehow don't understand or care about the problems in some parts of france is both presumptious and slightly insulting.[/quote]And now another one and this time stating "we"....that being who exactly ? This forum is slowly drifting back in time to the period when a few of the relative newbies on the Forum, got a little silly at anything others with even just slightly more experience posted. Some of us do try to say it like it really is, not how other people have told them it is like. Please point out where I have told you that you don't care. For instance, I was rather pleased when S.D arrived and I suspect Will and maybe others were, he gave good advice on motoring etc, he was helped a bit in the early months, accepted corrections and now pretty rare he makes any errors. Same for several others in their sections. I have always respected their efforts but there have always been people arrive here who simply will not see, that this country is absolutely full of problems from top to toe.Some folks want to decry that fact by saying they have no such problems etc etc and none exist as they just know they don't......I listen to the satellite folks, the pet folks, the plumbers and any other threads that I am not au fait with...If people want to say I haven't got a clue, then say it, don't make silly things up that I haven't even insinuated.I spoke of people that have admitted they did not want to read National or local papers, see National TV or regional and a load of other things that might help them get to know their region or even more of France than they, by their own admission actually wanted to. Now I shall say it again. I said it was their choice, read it, it is there. I really did think that once afew came after me to agree and obvioously get what I was talking about, it might show that peopoe can do waht thgye like as long as those that didn't bother to learn a little here, did not come on and tell others all about France in general.......No Such bleedin' luck!One thing that really gets me absolutely cheesed off, is people who will not read posts, it has happened in the past and it will continue. I haven't got time to keep going over and over something which other members got the point of my post immediately. It appears that a few simply are just not going to see it.....in which case, c'est la vie...................Every word and every post now has a very strong ring of déjà vu about them and it not so long ago, I was only saying to someone on here, just how realistic many people had become, sadly I now think I spoke a tad too soon............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Dave, with all due respects, the question was 'what is it like returning to UK', not 'what is right/wrong with France' - and the same comment could of course be directed at Miki, Gary and others. People forget that France is a big country and attitudes, ways of doing things etc, vary considerably, even in such mundane issues as hairdressing (see another current topic). Just as you wouldn't find things the same in Kent as you would in the Western Isles - possibly even more so as France is geographically larger.Not everybody who comes to France, or, having done so, returns home, does these things for the same reasons of course. It's not a subject where there can be rights or wrongs, just what we believe.I happen to believe that the France in which I live has peace and quiet, a slow pace and comparatively low house prices. I think this is common to most of rural France and is probably fundamental to why people move from Britain to there. I also believe that things are quite different in urban areas. I also happen to believe that the part of England where I also live is probably on a par with where I live in France as far as 'rurality' is concerned, though allowances have to be made for being in a town rather than the deep countryside, and it offers the benefits of lots of social opportunities, lots of job opportunities (I can do what I like without going through bureaucracy and incurring high charges) good communications, and lots of choice in virtually everything. Again, I know that I can go to an inner city area and see different things.I don't see this vandalism, crime, social deprivation, lack of respect and the other things that people mention. That's not to say that they don't exist in Britain, I know they do. But I also know that there are bits of France where I could see the same things if I wanted to. There are people selling drugs at our local college in France, and in the discos, just as there are pushers in the schools and clubs in Britain. You only tend to hear of the latter. There were recently (at the New Year) serious riots in France involving violence, arson and vandalism. We didn't have it plastered all over the TV and the papers, to the extent that it would have been in Britain, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.That's what I believe - and it leads to two points.First, others will believe something different, and as far as I am concerned, if those beliefs are based on fact rather than picked up from gossip and media stereotypes, then they are perfectly valid beliefs and I would not seek to change them.Second, I really don't think there is any 'better' or 'worse', 'right' or 'wrong' as far as France and Britain are concerned. There is a difference, but even that isn't, I think, as great as many believe when you compare like with like. We are close neighbours in the same continent on the same planet, separated by a narrow strip of water and with a long history of interaction between our people. I think the regional and urban/rural differences within both countries are greater than those between the countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Will, I am going to report you for being far too sensible.You are correct in that the thread has drifted away from the original question - which was pretty unanswerable, anyway, as there are so many individual circumstances.Perhaps to focus a bit:Is it common for Brits to 'escape' their version of the UK? It seems to me that there are a few. Like you, I don't recognise the UK they are talking about, althought there are undoubtedly good and bad areas. They are unlikely to return voluntarily.Do people come to France because they have failed in the UK? Undoubtedly, although this forum doesn't seem to have as many as some others, and stories I hear in France. Will those people also fail in France? Very probably. They may then have to go back, but to what is a conundrum. I have friends who sold their house in the UK to finance their Spanish finca, and now as they get older and a bit infirm it is going to be very hard to move back to be nearer their family.What about people have been 'living their dream' - they love France and want to share the way of life, integrate and become pillars of the community? Some have clearly been able to do that, others have found the bureaucracy and charges have made their dream impossible. They may then be forced to go back, but this may be difficult, as above.Some have come to France to establish businesses, some with success some not. The ones who succeed need hard heads and a very realistic attitude, it seems to me. They probably won't need to go back to the UK but may choose to do so as part of a change of direction, or to retire, hopefully with enough capital to resettle.Then there are the holiday homers - much derided by some posters in the past, but those with feet in either country, probably more able to judge the differences (unless we hide our heads in the sand) and similarities.Like you, Will, I must admit to being in love with both countries, and with their somewhat different cultures and modes de vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 To Will and Fluff I say, thank you for two clear and concise explanations, that says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 If I had bought a home in my native rural Lancashire instead of France (that was the alternative, but Mr Cooperlola preferred to move here and that was more than fine with me) and the two of us had lived comfortably on our pensions there instead, not coming into contact on a daily basis with the social problems associated with the some of the big cities in Northern England, would I have been smug and self satisfied then? An ostrich is capable of being an ostrich wherever he or she may live, it's not exclusive to those who move to France. I don't feel smug about having a great life here, just incredibly lucky that I had belonged to a well-managed pension fund and that I can afford to live well and not work - and I do realise that that is a privelage that many others do not enjoy - both here and in the UK.On a more practical note. I have a couple of friends who spent two or three holidays with us here. He was nearing retirement age and yet had no prospect of ever paying off the mortgage for the house they lived in. They were so "enchanted" with their own vision of our life here that they decided to cut their losses and move out here. They turned up for a stay and announced that they had put their house on the market and asked me to help them find a house to buy. Mr Cooperlola and I then spent a few hours talking them down from cloud 9 and actually found them a long term let in a little fermette a couple of kilometres away, owned by another couple whom we know. They have now been installed here for a couple of months and are so pleased that we talked them out of buying on the spur of the moment. Not because they want to go back, they don't, but they realise that now, if the life does not suit them, they are no worse off than they were before and can go back if they want/need to. Each of them recognises that when the ineveitable happens and one of them is eventually alone, they have the option to go back to the UK and live close to their children and other family again. They may still buy at some time in the future but at least they now have the chance to find out what life here is really like for them here in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanguedocGal2 Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"] An ostrich is capable of being an ostrich wherever he or she may live, it's not exclusive to those who move to France. I don't feel smug about having a great life here, just incredibly lucky [/quote]With you there, Cooperlola Super comments by all even if I identify more with the views of some more than others, nice to read everyone's views.On a lighter note as it’s a day of rest and goodwill to all humankind [kiss][kiss]Something that certainly doesn’t change whether you live in France or the UK is the sight of 40 somethings trying to look cool on the dance floor. Pathetic in either country but great fun [:D] Need to hit the sack for a few more hours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote] I know you keep threatening to leave this forum Mr Wanger-Tozzer, I,for one, would really miss your funny mis-guided ways if you left.[/quote]Nicely sidestepped Bogbear, talking cobblers will always confuse a debate, so bravo, it appears to come quite naturally to you............And now maybe you could show us where I keep threatening to leave the forum. You very much appear to have an extremely natural way of posting garbage of this nature.. I have asked answers from you before but you have perfected the knack of slithering away from them, by this same typical response. My post was quite easily read. Mmm bit silly trying to explain really, if a very simple post can't be understood................[quote]I'm not sure how length of time in anything is automatically a measureof experience, it's more down to being able to actually take in andunderstand those experiences. Remember the definition of an 'expert'. "X' being the unknown factor, and 'Spurt' , simply a drip underpressure." [/quote]Yep, that's the same drivel that' been carted out before. I had thought you might think of something original but I didn't hold out much hope, so I wasn't disappointed. Some of us certainly have learned from experience, that seems to bother you, don't tell me the old green eyes are back. I offer no advice unless I know the answer for sure, generally through experience of a long time of knowing and living in France. And yes, I get totally peed off with members who simply answer folks questions, with something they have heard from the proverbial man in the pub or read completely wrong somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="Dave"]You chose NOT to waste your beer on the keyboard the but instead drank it, you accuse people of not reading your posts but it is you who doesn't read nor do you understand it seems! I feel that you have correctly labelled yourself with your new User I.D. All of those things in my opinion describe your mentality perfectly. My wife and I have integrate fully into life here in France and NO we do not have pots of money, my wife works for a local assosciation as a homehelp (on the SMIC by the way) and yes that does make us both fully aware of the needs of poorer neighbours in the area so to have TU pointing the finger (yes you have mentioned me by name) and to accuse us of not understanding or caring about where we live and the people that we live with in our community is something I do not understand but I am sure that I will be having it made very clear to me pretty soon. It is my guess that one or other of the righteous will be hitting the 'report' button and this post will be deleted. I and other just responded in the beginning to the question and once we had given our views had those views torn apart by other posters, why?best regardsDave[/quote]Nice post Dave, two rather silly attacks on me about drinking and the ID, tut tut, not a lot of use in this debate but if it makes you feel better, well go on, help yerself to abusing. And all because you did not see what I saying in my post. You and the Missus can integrate, you can become the Maire for all I care, you can run the health service, you can be rich, be poor or get by, none of that bothers me. I thought I made my views pretty clear but sadly as I have said, some choose to read something that was not there, in to it...............tant pis ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="cooperlola"]I've been trying to quote you Whizz but the software hates me again! [/quote]It's because he's got commas and an ampersand in his name now cooperlola.Any chance you could change it to something else Whizz? The software gets all confused when someone tries to quote you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="Russethouse"]>>not people like us.<<But isn't that the point ? The forum is not full of people 'like you' its a diverse group - people with all sorts of attitudes and circumstances are forum members and people with all sorts of circumstances and attitudes move to France, that is clear from this thread.There does seem to be a group who move from urban GB, where they perceive their life as being stressed or dreadful or they are just tired of it, to rural France where naturally enough they experience an entirely different way of life which they prefer, all that is fine but among those people are a few that persist in telling everyone just how wonderful France is, without any knowledge (or sometimes interest) in anything other than their own patch.(and sometimes not even that)Thats a bit like me saying England's wonderful when I live in Piddlehinton (for example, I don't live there) and don't read the papers or watch the news. [/quote]Gay, This part of the post in italics, really does some it all up quite well but just to be slightly pedantic perhaps, there have been more than just a few, which I suspect you will agree with. When a person posts in that manner, some of us do reply to try and ensure that it is kept im proportion to France in general and it not anything like there little slice of France as I think some people do believe from what they read & see, programmes like No going back, Place in the Sun etc are the reality and not the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="Cat"][quote user="cooperlola"]I've been trying to quote you Whizz but the software hates me again! [/quote]It's because he's got commas and an ampersand in his name now cooperlola.Any chance you could change it to something else Whizz? The software gets all confused when someone tries to quote you. [/quote]Wilco Cat..................... Quotes away Cooperlola [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I absolutely understand your frustration, Whizz, I really do. Sounding off about "France" and "Life in France" instead of saying "the bit of France I know" and "The Life in France which I live" can give rise to boiling blood for me too at times. However, I think we all (and I include myself as I have been guilty of it myself on other subjects, and probably this one too) need to be a little careful about the way we word things at the time and - particularly when our blood is up - maybe read our posts a few times before actually pressing the post button. Otherwise we can end up insulting people and offending them when probably don't mean to, and certainly don't intend any kind of personal attack. My point: please, can we stop flinging insults about and go back to this - I believe quite fascinating - debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Cup of tea anyone ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 [quote user="WhizzerandCo"]Cup of tea anyone ? [/quote]Yes please, your place or mine? Thanks for the name change - I can quote you now![:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 One lump or two and how about the tea room in Dinard, where an upstanding pinkie is obligatoire ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddie Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 I am sure that if I should return to the UK I would initially be enchanted by the things I can't enjoy here - like libraries, looong summer days ( we lived in the north west) and cosy pubs. Then I would start noticing things which I would not like. Just like coming to France. Once the new wears off things look different. Regarding a cup of tea I gave up sugar in tea eons ago. Initially I could not stand it without sugar. Then I could not stand it with or ithout. Now I can't stand it with sugar. What am I saying? Perservere I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 This thread has been re instated. There are some posts missing and matters arising from some of those posts are being investigated. Anyone with comments to make regarding this should do so direct to admin.http://www.livingfrance.com/lvfra/content/contactUs.asp In the meantime please be aware that posts regarding the running of the forum will be deleted. Please post within the Code of Conduct and keep away from personal derogatory remarks. Should further posts be made that are against the Code of Conduct the thread will be permanently removed. Thank you for your co-operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Well done Gay nice to see it back, I admit to being a little sceptical about it. One point, was the following part really called for, it sounds more suited to blackmail than to a Forum [:)]"Should further posts be made that are against the Code of Conduct the thread will be permanently removed"Now where we were we, oh yes, I've made a nice sponge cake to go with the tea Cooperlola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Strikes me that most in life are "from a personal perspective". I think most people have their head in the sand about different things - there are too many aspects to life to be concerned about and keep up-to-date with so different people keep up with different things. Thus many will ignore aspects of the world, the country they live in, etc.. In some situations you might get aspects of life you are not interested in "thrust down your throat" (e.g. by work colleagues, TV, radio). Thus moving away and just focussing on what you find interesting does not mean you are using these rose tinted things, just that things have changed and your life is more under your control.Thus it is quite valid to find one place frustrating and them when you move to find things much better. You might perceive this as being because the country is much better though it might be because you no longer have all these people/things pushing negative information at you (things that you are not particularly interested in).I think when people use the terms "running away" they are expressing things emotively. There will always be different degrees but most people move to improve their life i.e. from somewhere worse to somewhere better (for them). Its a bit like "is the cup half full or half empty". What some might call "running away" (negative interpretation) others might think of as "running towards" - all depends of you outlook being positive or negative.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Not so much rose tinted specs as blinkers: only looking in front at what directly affects you. That's perfectly natural, and some people are quite happy to see only that. Others like to get the wider picture.Of course it's 'personal perspective'. People are bound to speak from their personal perspective, which gains validity when it is based on their own experiences rather than just hearsay.Thanks for bringing the debate back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I'm sure that, a couple of years ago, I would happily have "run away" to France. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, who knows?) my kids were both at stages in their education where this made the idea impossible, and in a way, I'm grateful. Now I've lived in France before, albeit a long time ago,and I work there on a pretty regular basis, so I can only put down my slight change of heart to the fact that, thanks to places like this forum, I can gain a better understanding of what day-to-day life in France could be like. Owning a place in France, and knowing the costs involved, meeting other UK expats living there permanently and hearing about the benefits and hardships.....all of these have encouraged me to examine my motives and to weigh up the pitfalls and positives of such a move. It's still on the cards, but I don't think I can ever turn my back on the UK. You could say that my "personal perspective" has changed quite a lot, in fact. I can understand that coming back to the UK after a long absence can heighten the feelings of discomfort brought about by increased unfamiliarity with things that you once didn't even notice (last time I came back to the UK after living abroad, I likened it to a spell in prison - cut off from what's going on in silly things like music, fashion, and even finding that different coins had been introduced!). I hope, though, that I will be able to accept the differences between France and the UK and live with them, rather than criticising everything in an attempt to justify my life choices, or waxing lyrical about the benefits of one over the other. I think that whatever life choices we make, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that we're privileged to be able to make them. It's a luxury that not everyone has. Funnily enough, I don't feel that a lot of the stuff I complain about in France are because I'm a Brit - all my French friends complain about them as well. What it all boils down to, as Will and Deimos have just said, is a very personal take on what suits the individual. I have found out that I can be happy, or miserable, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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