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What is it like returning to the UK ?


Deimos

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Since Xmas, those who have been passing through here on their way back to France from visits to family etc. in UK say they are all pleased to be back and many have stories of how life there has declined (rude youths, lack of  manners, no respect for others, etc., as before or worse).  Those returning to the UK talk of how they enjoyed their stay in France/Spain or wherever but do not mention declining UK social mores as a contributory factor - maybe they have been coccooned with friends or family during their stay and so do not notice the difference. 

I think you have to beware of cognitive dissonance among those who have invested in a move to France, or those who have moved back.

Everyone is inclined to defend personal choices in all matters, great and small, from where they live to which bank or mobile phone operator they use.

You only have to be on this forum a short time to see how heated some get when someone suggests that they may have made the wrong choice or could have done better.

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I agree somewhat with your posts Beryl but with strong family numbers, including 3 Sons, in several places around the UK, one in politics, I do get constant updates, I read an awful lot (being my Mother tongue, I think you will agree, that gives me a massive benefit to a Brit coming here and who does not read or talk French) and get updates about this and that on a regular basis. Like Gay mentioned about her family, we too chat long and hard over many things, either the two of us or with friends it just seems natural to chat and laugh about this and that and naturally politics and local issues are brought up.

People come here and rather bizarelly, many will give an instant opinion as to how it all is in France. I will be blunt here, I have never known so many coming in , with barely much more than a few words and as for a sentence.....Now to be honest, that is not my point, they are entitled to say as much, or as little as they want but can someone explain therefore, how anyone will know much at all about their new country, if they neither speak, read or watch a bit of TV, well at least the local news etc. Sure some have said that they really don't care to know and again, that's fair enough but can those folks please remember all that, when they offer an opinion about the French and things French.

Many will get their opinions from a neighbour,  from an apero now and

again (if lucky enough to get an invite) a few bonjours and all of a sudden, we are given a general post

that all is great here (note the word ALL) Sure it is different but it is the way we are told no violence, no graffiti, no scroungers, only the Brits work on the black and all the other 101 myths. I wonder how those folks feel when it all comes home to roost ? Anyone know or willing to put their hands up ?

Believe me, I won't name any names as it is all water long gone under the bridge but I know some members who utterely believed that they knew all they needed to know about this and in the end, found much of it was wrong. Much of the knowledge in the end was through PM's (still is, believe it or not I still get a few emails from folks !) Now to be totally fair, I have admitted on LF to also making costly errors over the early years. Well how else could we have found out the way forward, (oh we paid heavily to the few consultants, none no longer about, well one is, just hope they know more now, than then !) no Forums or internet to offer a large helping hand.

This is becoming yet another spell and soon I guess some will get called haters of France, as if France is Utopia and all the terrible sights I see nightly on TV of the folks living under an Autoroute Bridge and even worse, are nothing but propaganda. I will say it as it is, as others will do. I will speak with some experience of what I have seen, witnesses and experienced. A lot sickens me here but do I have to leave ? I have a Daughter who has gone right through her schooling here and still needs our supprt in her Bac +2 year, we have our 3rd Son who likes to be in France, when in the UK and vice versa. I also have a good business I have made friends from Provence to Pas de Calais. I get on or as I should say, I get by but what I won't do is slag off the UK to make me feel more at home here. I live here, it is a country, no more, no less. Today I gave a can of dog food and jar of baby food to people outside an affluent supermarket, OK sure, no big deal, many will no doubt give more but it is meant to show another replication of life in the UK. I walked around one of loveliest towns in Brittany and got soaked and wondered at a 13th century school, where some little tyke had put graffiti on the back gate by the cloisters. I read the local rag and 2 people had been found killed/murdered over Xmas and I am only on page 4.............

OK, I have gone on a bit, all I am trying to say is, if you come from Tower Hamlets and move to Sarlat or Marseilles to Wentworth, you are in for a fairly good  life....for a while. Please remember, you will be going home or moving on, the statistics point to it almost being inevitable, like it or not and you can scream all you like but that is a cold fact. I lost count some years ago of how many folks we have known, who have long gone back and in March a close friend goes home with her 2 teenage kids.....sadly one of so many reasons, a divorce.

et voila...................

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[quote user="LanguedocGal2"][quote user="Dotty "]

RE the bit about reading French papers, I can't remember who said it or when.  I didn't buy a paper, watch the news or have any interest in currant affairs in the UK, so I don't feel bad doing the same in France.

Its not that I don't care, but I'm not really interested in the drivel that pads out a paper or a news programme.  If something serious in the world is happening then I can see it on the home page on my pc.  Otherwise it just ain't news.

[/quote]

Dotty 

That’s fine but then I suppose you would not be one of those people slagging off you know where.

 A little note re ‘’the drivel that pads out a paper’’.

Most of the time, it’s snore inducing stuff – I would agree- however, it may also contain information saying, for example, that a local school, sports centre, service etc are earmarked for closure, that your quiet corner of France has the TGV coming through it in a few years or that a beautiful field near your house is earmarked to be transformed into a waste landfill site (There is village in the Aude facing this very problem now) or even that your ‘cotisations’ are going to increase by 30% in the next budget.  None of this may be on your PC but you may be aware if you mix properly in your community, read the press or watch the news.

 You will I suppose be happy to receive your new bill increased by that much without having made any preparations for it or have that beautiful field turned into a waste landfill site without having had the opportunity to fight against it etc,etc.  Knowing a little about our new country can be useful but then again, you could always write into LF for someone who does pay attention to the ‘’drivel’’ to explain things to you.

 Tozzer

 In other words, ambidextrous winking is incurable….

 Did you hear Chirac’s almighty gaff the other day?  He was announcing that the French business tax rate (Highest in EU closely followed by Spain) was to be progressively reduced to 30% over 5 years but instead said ‘over 20 years’, then quickly and shamefacedly blabbered his way out of it.  This was a live broadcast so was not edited. A great comic moment but we now have to wait and see whether it was cheap electioneering or something real

 

[/quote]

LG2

I am very much involved with the local community, mostly due to having three children at the local schools.  I am involved with the local kids football teams as both of my sons play and my nearest neighbour is on every commitee in the village and we are very good friends, he often pops over to see if we are ok and helps me out if I have trouble understanding letters/bills etc.  Also every month we have a news letter hand delivered, it gives out all the information of births, deaths and marriages and the financial report for the village as well as road works and future plans.  I feel as though I'm well informed of the important news and activities which directly affect me and my family.

I don't feel the need to read the national papers or watch the French news channels, I've never been interested in politics and have never voted.  Perhaps its a waste of a vote, but ultimately its my choice and I feel comfortable with it.

Dotty

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

Well thats OK  Dotty but how do you find out about local stuff that might effect you ?

I was bought up to try and keep up with current affairs, as was my mother - her father bought one  paper on the way up to London in the morning on the 'workman's train' and then two for the return (one was for my grandmother). They discussed current affairs over their evening meal - my mother has often told me of how murder trials, for example would be reported verbatim.

I think TV has made us lazy about this, too ready to accept the ever present 'sound bite' I know I certainly don't 'keep up' the way I used to.

LG - we posted at the same time !

[/quote]

RH how much did your parents pay for you?[:)]

See above reply.

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I agree with him too. Doesn't often happen.

Yes, we have all made mistakes in the past. For some of us the start of this forum in 1999 or 2000 or whenever it was coincided with our first serious involvements with France. We came here believing many of the myths, call it rose tinted if you like, but in many cases the myths came from the mouths of so-called professional advisers. Few of us realised on the one hand how difficult and costly it was to work in France, or understood the difference between the black market and registered workers. On the other hand, we hadn't expected the French outside the towns to be such simple (meant in the complimentary sense rather than an insult) folk and so friendly and accommodating to us invaders. We didn't have the forum to guide us to the same extent, we were, I suppose, building up the forum ourselves as an information resource. It sounds horribly pompous, but I think that's how it was.

Most of us were only too willing to learn, though there were some who thought they knew it all and found it hard to accept that other people may have had different experiences, or drawn different conclusions - equally valid. There was one person though, who had been in France longer than most, and wasn't afraid to tell it like it was. Some of us listened and I think benefited from the voice of experience, but others got pretty upset about having their dreams and their views of utopia called into question. I remember her getting some very unpleasant hate mail as a result of her frankness. That person of course was TeamedUp. Since then we have gained others who have been there, done that, and are willing to share their experience - like Miki for example.

You don't have to agree with them, but do listen to them. It's not a negative view of France that they put forward, it's how things are after the honeymoon period.

One recurring point is that life, wherever you are, is what you make it. That doesn't mean everything has to be good, you need to recognise the bad and deal with it. The thing is with forums like this (some others are far worse) is that people seem to have to justify their presence in France by slagging off Britain at every opportunity. Whatever their reasons for coming to France, and there are many valid reasons, dissatisfaction with Britain seems about the least valid. Look around you - most of Britain is not covered in graffiti, strewn with litter, populated by alcoholics and drug peddlers with everybody rushing round, overworked, and in a frenzy to spend spend spend to keep ahead of the neighbours before all of their money and possessions gets nicked (and I haven't even mentioned immigrants). Equally you don't have to look too far in France to find the same problems (and I had better not mention immigrants now, because that's exactly what most of us are)..

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Both Miki and Will's points are well made.

I certainly cannot speak with any authority about French life as I have not been here long enough and am still in a honeymoon period. Certainly, as I gradually find my feet, things irk me such as the problems I had recently with my bank and feel sure they could learn a thing or two from some (not all!) UK banks, but as was pointed out to my experience was not necessarily the norm.  

I am glad there are those out there with the knowledge and wisdom to help me out when I am stuck.

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I would like to recommend that this thread be distilled, bottled and sold at all major channel ports, with samples given free to visitors to "Vive la France". The distillate could even be used to impregnate small cloths with which people clean their glasses. It could be marketed as "particularly tough on pink stains".

Just a thought.[:D]

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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

I would like to recommend that this thread be distilled, bottled and sold at all major channel ports, with samples given free to visitors to "Vive la France". The distillate could even be used to impregnate small cloths with which people clean their glasses. It could be marketed as "particularly tough on pink stains".

Just a thought.[:D]

[/quote]Yes, and maybe hand it out to the producers of those programmes which tell unsuspecting house purchasers how little it will cost them to renovate property x, how they'll be able to live on the income from renting out the shed at the bottom of their garden as a gite, all the while forgetting to mention the taxes they will have to pay of course...

I agree with you too, Dave; without a doubt our life (mine and Mr Cooperlola's) is better here than it was in England even though in our case the area from which we moved was very similar (we lived there for 20+ years and never felt the need to lock the front door at night).  But I guess (and it's just my opinion) that the point is, this is not going to be true for everybody - moving here is not necessarily a panacea for all the real and perceived ills you are leaving behind and it would be foolish to think that is a certainty for everybody.  That's why so many of the above comments will make good reading for anybody thinking of making the move - France is great, I love living here, my life is better since I got here but that isn't, and never will be, true for everybody and it does not make England - suddenly and for no reason - a dreadful place to live either.

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Dave,

Take this in the way it is intended.I am sorry but my post seems to have gone over your head. You are taking it personal when if you read it properly, you will see that I have put "................Sure some have said that they really don't care to know and again, that's fair enough..." and you will also note that I have said :

"......OK, I have gone on a bit, all I am trying to say is, if you come from

Tower Hamlets and move to Sarlat or Marseilles to Wentworth, you are in

for a fairly good  life....for a while.

And for some reason you are now quoting this "......I now choose to stick my head up my J**ksy and pretend that I have found my Utopia"

You are defending something that was not being attacked, what my point was all what you do is OK with me, just don't become one of the people who by desiring to know zilch, still want to give opinions about France and it's ways by not wanting to know much at all and just get by.

You live how you like, no problems to me, please just try and see, that you can say all what you have just posted, over and over again, no worries but do remember, what happened to you, is happening in all the major cities in France. Now you will have to believe me on that of course but it is and once again, I have to ask why you posted all that, after I was just making a point for those that don't want to learn French or try and find out what it's all about should therefore say nowt. If you don't understand waht I was trying to get across, like the others have, then I am going to seek a large beer and pour it all over the keyboard.That should do the trick !

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>>Most of us were only too willing to learn, though there were some who thought they knew it all and found it hard to accept that other people may have had different experiences, or drawn different conclusions - equally valid. There was one person though, who had been in France longer than most, and wasn't afraid to tell it like it was. Some of us listened and I think benefited from the voice of experience, but others got pretty upset about having their dreams and their views of utopia called into question. I remember her getting some very unpleasant hate mail as a result of her frankness. That person of course was TeamedUp. Since then we have gained others who have been there, done that, and are willing to share their experience - like Miki for example.<<

Crikey Will, I had a dewy moment then ![:)]

 

 

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I understand the frustrations of Dave - we are currently witnesses for the prosecution in a criminal trial where the defendants are facing a prison term - and we are experiencing some fairly nasty witness intimidation.  We have had all the windows of our house smashed twice with house bricks (leaving the children and I cut with shards of glass), we have been assaulted and threatened, we have received black edged calling cards.  We spent over a £1,000 on CCTV to protect our house - and within days our neighbours windows (out of sight of the CCTV cameras) were put through.  We are supposed to have police protection under the witness protection scheme but the police are so overstretched the reality is we have little or no support.  We have had months of hell and our home in France has become our refuge and escape.  For us France is heaven BUT - our circumstances in the UK are probably pretty exceptional and, when in France, we are in a picturesque rural area.  Further we don't have to earn a living in France.  Accordingly, when we are there we are 'on holiday' and so don't have to do battle with bureaucracy and red tape.  And our lifestyle is determined by our UK salaries - which by French standards are good.

Good and bad are relative terms - relative to where you are moving to and what you are moving from. 

Kathie

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Fascinating reading some of these posts make and causing a few heated exchanges but if you analyise what has been said it surely boils down to the following;

There are some pretty awful places to live in both the UK and France.

There are also some wonderful places to live in both countries.

People do sometimes come here (France) ill-prepared and end up making expensive mistakes. Others, of course, through luck or good judgement do find their 'Nirvana'.

A lot of the success generally, tends to be the retired couples who come here for 'the quiet and peaceful life' unlike those who need an income and have to get embroiled in the sometimes crazy bureaucracy that trying to work for a living brings.

My personal situation as I've stated before is that our current situation is perfect for us, and surely, that's enough. I cannot envisage ever going back to the UK, but who knows what may happen in the future, certainly not me.

 

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No idea why you continued to live like that in the UK Dave. No idea at all. I wouldn't have. I have very well defined comfort zones, to my tastes ofcourse and I just won't live like that.  BUT please remember that there are french people living the same thing you did in the UK. We have no-go areas in France and some not too far from me in a local city, even been on national news. And people live in these places. Look at french depressive rates, they are impressive!

 

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Can we get this right, the vast majority of the french people live in suburbs, cities, towns, banilieu. Then you have this enormous country, my is it big, and hardly a soul, and these vast areas haven't been able to support their limited populations and too many of the young especially have had to  move to populated areas for work. This leaves shockingly cheap housing stock out in paysan land. And in come brits and think that they have found  France, but it is a France which is far from the reality of most french people's lives.  And yet the french  would recognise the life in la France profond as easily as we recognise something from post war Britain, but it is not their lives in the here and now!

I think I hate this idea that all France is  paysanland. It isn't. The people are quite different and far more sophisticated than your average paysan. They lead busy working lives, long days (the 35 hour week doesn't necessarily reduce daily working times) and have to put up with all the crap that all other modern societies have.

 

There is nothing more wrong with France than anywhere else, and believe me or not, which you probably won't, you can all find all the merde you have left behind, here in France. The ADVANTAGE you have is that most of you have made money in the UK which means that you can take this cheap housing stock, something that locals and SMIC'ards can only dream of.

 

Will,

ah I remember it well.........[:D][:D][:D] were the knives out to get me when I first posted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Teamedup"]

 

 The ADVANTAGE you have is that most of you have made money in the UK which means that you can take this cheap housing stock, something that the locals and SMIC'ards can only dream of.

 [/quote]

Exactly - it is the heavy taxes and low income of the majority of the French that create the cheap housing and lifestyle that give the (British / Dutch / German etc) immigrants their high quality of life (by comparison) in France. 

Kathie

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Dave, I whole heartedly agree with what you have just said about the way you see France.  My little bit of France is everything I hoped it would be.

TU, We cerainly haven't come here with money and we have bought a house that has been empty for 5 years, thus hopefully adding to the local community.

I don't think anyone has knives out for you now. [:D]

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But Dotty you haven't had to move to an HLM in a cité and not a cat in hell's chance of a little house, another HLM, with a garden have you, or HAVE YOU?

Moving here to your own home is perceived as coming here with money, as so many can't ever envisage having that luxory. 

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