"Why can't the press leave us alone?

[westland]

Having read our local newspaper the Montagne which I pick up once a week during the weekly shop I am upset to see yet another article "brit bashing".  

 I have only read the one article out of a series of five having missed the others that were published earlier in the week.  This paper has decided to publish a full page of no less than five separate articles which are mainly anti-british; from the blatant attitude of the deputy of Aubusson who " denounces" the Britains "flooding" the Creuse "accusing" them of exploiting the French social security, to the usual article that we have been responsible for putting up property prices.

There is a piece which talks of Brits working on the black and not paying taxes, at the end of which we are even being pilloried at the expense of one Brit who accidently forgot he was in the Creuse, drove on the left and had an accident - happily the accident was "sans gravite".  Perhaps they should ban anyone who comes from a country where they drive on the left (my reaction!).

An article about banks and estate agents offering "English Spoken" , ends by saying "and then when one walks around London one doesn't see "Francaise Parle" in the windows, something to think on?"

I haven't read such inflammatory articles before in this newspaper, but then I only get it once a week.  Do other forum members in other parts of France notice that the press in their area can't leave the Brits in peace?

 

 

 

 

 

[Will]

No.

Any time it is mentioned it is generally favourable.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Generally the same here though - quite rightly - there are the very occassional articles about the b******s working on the black and not paying their taxes and fiddling the social security.

[westland]

Good to see that you two haven't seen much bad  press in your departments.  Especially Tony in the Dordogne as Le Montagne even cross referenced to the "well off but not working" in the Dordogne "who benefit from RMI" in a bid to get home their scaremongering that there might be reason for concern about the "flood" of Brits in the Creuse.   

However, the study that was commissioned to verify these concerns states that of the 1,774 beneficiaries of RMI 50 of these were British, how this is interpreted will be down to the individual reading the article.

[Danny]

[quote user="westland"]  

However, the study that was commissioned to verify these concerns states that of the 1,774 beneficiaries of RMI 50 of these were British, how this is interpreted will be down to the individual reading the article.

[/quote]

Did it also mention the nationalities of those who were not British?

Danny

[Gluestick]

Whilst I am a very strong Francophile,  I do become exercised when the French start whinging about a reality of EU law and policy, created by the insane bureacracy of Strasburg which they apparently loved so much!

It was fine to destroy Britain's farming industry when all the French, German, Dutch and Danish farmers were growing fat and rather wealthy under CAP!

It was fine to screw Britain's economy, thanks to the blind idiocy of "In at Any Cost" Heath!

It is also fine for the apparent floods - according to the media, in particular the French Right Wing media! - of French entrepreneurs flooding into the UK to start businesses: and equally fine for all the French bankers in Canary Wharf!

Quid Pro Quo!

 

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]Generally the same here though - quite rightly - there are the very occassional articles about the b******s working on the black and not paying their taxes and fiddling the social security.[/quote]

I can understand why people work on the black as from what I've seen the government doesn't exactly go out of its way to help or encourage people to be up front with regards work. As soon as you work, you're stung big time. Which surprised me, I always thought France was a socialist country.

Personally, I couldn't work on the black, my conscience is worth more than that, but if there's a way legally to avoid the government taking my money, I'm there!

[Tony F Dordogne]

But it's the French system and as immigrants/ex-pats we choose to live here.  As such, we should abide by the French law.  Not what we think it should be, not the law that we want it to be to salve our own indiscretions and attempts to get round French laws, like importing Brit builders for a quick and illegal cash in hand job.  The problem is just compounded by the French actually thinking it's ok to be working on the black with the 'it's necessary to make a living here' argument which the Brits - and others - use to justify breaking the law.

People here have always had a choice - you either work for yourself and accept the level of cotizations and if you can fiddle a bit here and there it's ok - well, it's not really is it, what's the difference between doing it here and doing it illegally in the UK, nothing at all as far as I can see, you're still avaoiding your overheads and taxes.  Or you work for somebody else and don't fiddle, just get criticised for being a functionaire, have a lack of drive, being a poor customer service person, usually whilst working for around or just above the SMIC and with no chance of earning money on the black and whose employers (even the State) have to pay the overheads to employ them.

And the fact that people abuse it - French, Greek, Brits whoever - still doesn't make it right.

As for France being a socialist country, it is, in the usual French melange of political idealogies - one of the reasons that cotizations are so high is to theoretically maintain the State and whilst it may, in business terms, be bankrupt, lower cotizations would just increase the national debt.

Now, stop people working on the black by bringing in new employment systems and structures to make employment easier and draw in more money through cotizations etc, implement the law on employment with really heavy fines for people who employ on the black - no market, no supply - thus creating more real jobs .............. 

[BJSLIV]

Whilst I am a very strong Francophobe

So if you dislike the French why do you choose to live here?

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

But it's the French system and as immigrants/ex-pats we choose to live here.  As such, we should abide by the French law.  Not what we think it should be, not the law that we want it to be to salve our own indiscretions and attempts to get round French laws, like importing Brit builders for a quick and illegal cash in hand job.  The problem is just compounded by the French actually thinking it's ok to be working on the black with the 'it's necessary to make a living here' argument which the Brits - and others - use to justify breaking the law.

People here have always had a choice - you either work for yourself and accept the level of cotizations and if you can fiddle a bit here and there it's ok - well, it's not really is it, what's the difference between doing it here and doing it illegally in the UK, nothing at all as far as I can see, you're still avaoiding your overheads and taxes.  Or you work for somebody else and don't fiddle, just get criticised for being a functionaire, have a lack of drive, being a poor customer service person, usually whilst working for around or just above the SMIC and with no chance of earning money on the black and whose employers (even the State) have to pay the overheads to employ them.

And the fact that people abuse it - French, Greek, Brits whoever - still doesn't make it right.

As for France being a socialist country, it is, in the usual French melange of political idealogies - one of the reasons that cotizations are so high is to theoretically maintain the State and whilst it may, in business terms, be bankrupt, lower cotizations would just increase the national debt.

Now, stop people working on the black by bringing in new employment systems and structures to make employment easier and draw in more money through cotizations etc, implement the law on employment with really heavy fines for people who employ on the black - no market, no supply - thus creating more real jobs .............. 

[/quote]

Um... I don't think anywhere I said that I condoned what these people (French, English, Polish, whoever) were doing was right. Merely that I can understand why they would do it.

Your last paragraph, I agree whole heartidly with. Give them the incentive to work legally by not crucifying them, and the black market would become negligible.

[Suze01]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

Whilst I am a very strong Francophobe

So if you dislike the French why do you choose to live here?

[/quote]

I really think he meant Francophile but got a bit confused with his suffix's

[Gluestick]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

Whilst I am a very strong Francophobe

So if you dislike the French why do you choose to live here?

[/quote]

Yes Suze: absolutely correct. It's been a long, hard, week! Now corrected.

Actually, BJSLIV, I don't live in France, all the time.

And where did I say I didn't like the French?

I simply expressed my own perspective on a specific aspect of European Union reality.

 

[Will]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

People here have always had a choice - you either work for yourself and accept the level of cotizations and if you can fiddle a bit here and there it's ok - well, it's not really is it, what's the difference between doing it here and doing it illegally in the UK, nothing at all as far as I can see, you're still avaoiding your overheads and taxes. 

[/quote]

If you have a good accountant, your taxable income will be minimised - by legal means - which means that the cotisations will not necessarily be the astronomical figure that people quote. And taxes could well be minimal. Yes, many people do fiddle the books and work on the black. The French do it, it's what they always have done (though usually in the form of doing part of the work through the books and part on the side). Many British do it because they begrudge paying accountant's fees.

[westland]

To Jane and Danny, it just stated that 80 were "foreigners" from EU countries (including the 50 British).  I have since noticed that the study was at 31st December, 2005 so quite a while ago and of course only covered our department.

[Ron Avery]

The reality is that that paper is right, there are far too many British people here dodging income tax and paying their dues. OK they may have gone over the top with sweeping statements about claiming RMI based on 50 out of a 1000, but it does not make the general theme wrong.

Here is a challenge.  Think of 10 British couples that you know who live in France.  How many of those pay their full dues?  With me, it is only 4.  Of the rest, four couples do not pay into the French healthcare system,  winging it because a "English speaking" Doctor does not do as he should and shop them.  Two of those also declare no tax in France, both claiming they do not live here really, they have an accommodation address in the UK

Another couple did not live here officially so as to keep receiving DLA for an illness long cured by relaxing by the pool built with the DLA money no doubt.  The last couple, declare no tax or pay healthcare, one works in the UK from time to time doing casual jobs whilst the O/H wife lives in France on long term sick from a UK job, of course they also do not live here really[Www]

[Will]

Most of those I know who would come in Ron's six out of ten have either left France or have made themselves legitimate. Yes, I know of a couple of people who I suppose you could say are in France illegally, but they seem to be in the minority. Of course, the Dordogne, say, or central Brittany may be completely different.

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Why this perpetual whingeing about expats working on the black? It is the norm in France. If they stopped it the overregulated system would grind to a halt.

This is from this weekends Figaro and says about 10% of work in the catering trade is black.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/economie/20070812.WWW000000031_un_quart_des_hotels_cafes_restaurants_fraudent_l_urssaf.html

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Why this perpetual whingeing about expats working on the black? It is the norm in France. If they stopped it the overregulated system would grind to a halt.

This is from this weekends Figaro and says about 10% of work in the catering trade is black.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/economie/20070812.WWW000000031_un_quart_des_hotels_cafes_restaurants_fraudent_l_urssaf.html

This article puts the proportion at more like a quarter - http://info.france2.fr/france/33173180-fr.php

Let's hope it was just their working that was on the black and not their fingernails [:P]

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

The stats for those employed illegally are about 10% of the numbers employed but the numbers for total fraud seem to vary widely. I wonder what total fraud is? This seems to suggest basically employing someone without all the paperwork being correct. Seems an odd definition of fraud:

Un établissement est en fraude si au moins un de ses salariés n'a pas fait l'objet d'une déclaration d'embauche. L'absence de bulletin de paie ou la sous-déclaration des heures effectuées constitue aussi du travail dissimulé, passible de trois ans de prison et 45.000 euros d'amende.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote]

The stats for those employed illegally are about 10% of the numbers employed but the numbers for total fraud seem to vary widely. I wonder what total fraud is? This seems to suggest basically employing someone without all the paperwork being correct. Seems an odd definition of fraud:

Un établissement est en fraude si au moins un de ses salariés n'a pas fait l'objet d'une déclaration d'embauche. L'absence de bulletin de paie ou la sous-déclaration des heures effectuées constitue aussi du travail dissimulé, passible de trois ans de prison et 45.000 euros d'amende.

[/quote]

Ah yes, I see. 10% of workers, but 26% of establishments. Well, those 10% are clearly being astoundingly productive and should have little problem finding employment if they can become regulised....

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

It is decidedly confusing. However what it shows is that simple banning or fining does not and will not work. They have to liberalize. Then start again with fresh legislation that is less repressive.

[Ron Avery]

"They have to liberalize. Then start again with fresh legislation that is less repressive"

Why?  What most French people (and Chirac) think is that they need to encourage innovation and make it easier to start and expand a business, not work on the black.  Would you apply the same logic ie make it less hard to offend,  to say knife crime in the UK?

[Russethouse]

At the risk of incurring Ron's wrath, perhaps the French  should take a leaf out of Gordon Browns book. He made it easier to register as a limited company and in doing so made it worthwhile for some of those evading tax to become legal......of course now they are 'caught' in the net he may do all sorts of unfriendly things, but it does seem quite a good move

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Ron, all you lovely people, here is a case history. The question is what would you do, realistically?

X drives diggers for a living. He does the regulation hours but cannot legally do more. He wants to give his family a decent, owned home and a reasonable standard of living. His wages do not permit this, not even combined with those of his wife. So what does he do? He can't get a raise because that is the level for the area. Move? Not possible. So he works on the black on Saturdays and free days to make a bit extra. Is he a criminal? No, he is a victim of a stupid system which was invented by a government out of touch with the people. This is a real person, I know him. Somebody reported him, but his boss covered it. The reporting person will never work again.

Even Sarkozy's famous allowing people to work extra hours tax free ain't so simple. Bacause of the tax system they cant have the money for 18 months.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I think France is long overdue another revolution. Who's with me comrades???