The abolition of French Departments

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Coolbikerchick"]But won't we still have to change the carte grise when we move, if only to show the change of address, so although the number plate won't change we'll still be paying for a change in paperwork.  And you can bet your bottom dollar that the cost will remain the same, even though only element is changing ..

I agree it would be great to be able to do stuff like that online!

CBC
[/quote]

Good point about the carte grise CBC but there is no charge for  a change of address to a carte grise, of course the new plates are not free.  To do a change on line all the records of residence, assurance, CT etc would have to be linked and France is a long way from achieving that.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Logan"]

.... that's why countries need leaders who are brave enough to force through change in the teeth of opposition. It's called leadership.[:)]

[/quote]

Forcing things through against the majority wishes of those who elected you? I thought that was called dictatorship...[:)]

[Logan]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

Forcing things through against the majority wishes of those who elected you? I thought that was called dictatorship...[:)]
[/quote]

In a parliamentary democracy laws are passed by majority with the peoples consent by proxy. Their elected representatives are just that. If they vote against the wishes of their electorate they have to answer to them. A government is constructed from the same representatives and act in the name of the majority of people who elected them. It’s called government by consent.

When governments try to pass laws against the majority wish they become unstuck. Dictatorship is something else entirely.

 

[Ron Avery]

In a parliamentary democracy laws are passed by ........

Blimey,  and I get bollocked for taking threads of topic, where is that sue when you need her!![:P]

I cannot see how the departments would ever be abolished other than from car number plates by a national system. Regions and Departments form the backbone of French local government and it would be a massive change in the way government was structured to bring that about, I have read nothing that suggests this is being contemplated, any press references Logan?

[Kitty]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

And Arthur is brown eyed!!

 [:D]

[/quote]

Does he really have brown eyes?  I know that he thinks that he's good looking!  Is it on at the moment?

Back to topic, so how many regions are there?  I am confused.  Can someone explain the layers of government here?

 

[Logan]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 any press references Logan?

[/quote]

In my original post.

[Maricopa]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

You seem to all agree, maybe because you are English. Personnally I prefer to keep the number of the separtment, I like to see where a car comes from.

[/quote]

 

Frenchie, I'm english and fully agree with you.  On the odd occasion when I drive the length of France, I enjoy seeing the change of number plates (sad, I know!).[geek]

[Frenchie]

Not sad,  fun ! [;-)]

They want us all alike, same tasteless cheese all over Europe, same car plates, same TV programmes, same currency ,  no more departements, no more specificities..

If it were for proçgress I would agree, I'm OK for Europe, but not the one they are proposing.

 By the way, the European treaty was massively rejected by the French and I was happy about it..

Open to the world, and I think I am, I have a British partner and I love discovering new foreign traditions from all over the world, but I also want my country to keep some of its tradition and its proper culture .

 

[Weedon]

I'm all for keeping the system as it stands, for 2 reasons.

Number 1.  I have only just learned to remember my number plate, having owned it for 2 years.

Nunber 2.  Most importantly.  Near to me there is a set of traffic lights which has 2 lanes leading up to it which go straight on the other side of the lights for about two hundred metres before going into one lane.  I adhere to the rule explained to me by a neighbour, that in the rush the other side of the lights to get into the single lane you only give way to cars that have a different department number because they don't know any different.  If the department numbers are going to be made much smaller, I see trouble ahead.

[Logan]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

Open to the world, and I think I am, I have a British partner and I love discovering new foreign traditions from all over the world, but I also want my country to keep some of its tradition and its proper culture .

[/quote]

And I am sure you also want France to modernise and reduce it's over burdened state sponsored bureaucracy. For this is why these proposals are being considered. To make life easier and the system more user friendly. The loss of car spotting is surely a small price to pay.

[raindog]

[quote user="Weedon"]

I'm all for keeping the system as it stands, for 2 reasons.

Number 1.  I have only just learned to remember my number plate, having owned it for 2 years.

Nunber 2.  Most importantly.  Near to me there is a set of traffic lights which has 2 lanes leading up to it which go straight on the other side of the lights for about two hundred metres before going into one lane.  I adhere to the rule explained to me by a neighbour, that in the rush the other side of the lights to get into the single lane you only give way to cars that have a different department number because they don't know any different.  If the department numbers are going to be made much smaller, I see trouble ahead.

[/quote]

LOL

excellent reasons weedon [:D]

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Logan"][quote user="Frenchie"]

Open to the world, and I think I am, I have a British partner and I love discovering new foreign traditions from all over the world, but I also want my country to keep some of its tradition and its proper culture .

[/quote]

And I am sure you also want France to modernise and reduce it's over burdened state sponsored bureaucracy. For this is why these proposals are being considered. To make life easier and the system more user friendly. The loss of car spotting is surely a small price to pay.

[/quote]  As if it were such an annoying case of bureaucracy...............

More user friendly? I will still have to change my carte grise and it will be charged, no doubt. I'm not dreaming, the state is not going to let such a huge source of  income go down the drain !!

I am more annoyed by stupid bureaucratic measures such as " l entente préalable" when you need to see a physio for instance.. You have to fill in a form, send it to the CPAM which ALWAYS accepts it, so what s the use? The physio himself says " it s just a " fomalité"..

I could develop many other examples...

[The Riff-Raff Element]

In a parliamentary democracy laws are passed by majority with the peoples

consent by proxy. Their elected representatives are just that. If they vote

against the wishes of their electorate they have to answer to them. A

government is constructed from the same representatives and act in the name of

the majority of people who elected them. It’s called government by consent.

When governments try to pass laws against the majority wish they become

unstuck. Dictatorship is something else entirely.

In principle, perhaps, but in most parliamentary democracies voting in that

parliament is whipped along party lines.

Free votes are so unusual that they get reported in the press.

Once elected, our proxies seldom take any notice of their electors until such

time as they need to slime for re-appointment to the gravy train at which point

we are presented with a Hobson’s choice of voting for the muppet

"our" party puts up or switching allegiance to some other

muppet.  Either way, we usually get a muppet, pre-selected by their party as

being “sound.” And any muppet that loses his seat generally finds gainful

employment as a consultant or some such on some other gravy train, so once

they've got their feet under the table there is little incentive for them to

listen to anybody.

At best I'd say "parliamentary democracy" is a "quasi democracy."

I quite like the Swiss system of frequent referendums, but Switzerland

really is not to my taste and the chance of my being able to vote there before

I die of either old age or crushing boredom is nil. And I can’t see many other

nations being so willing to hand direct legislative power to the people.

I sometimes think benign dictatorship might be a preferable to this complete

circus. Perhaps we should agitate for the re-establishment of the absolute

monarch.

And why should anyone think that the abolition of département numbers on car

number plates in any way be « more » efficient? Let alone the

wholesale centralisation of officialdom that would be the result of getting rid

of the départemental bureaucracy.

Because it won’t be.  Virtually nothing that claims to be more

efficient and save money ever is, once it is examined.

It might save the

government money and this they can gleefully report to the taxpayer as being a

success, but in practice we’ll all be spending huge amounts of otherwise

unproductive time working our way through automated telephone menus before being

placed on hold for 15 minutes and finally transferred to a warehouse outside

Lille to be told that we’ve got the wrong organisation altogether. That is

highly inefficient for the user, even if they have gained an extra 50 centimes

a week in return for having their local town centre denuded of administrative

offices.

Whereas, at the moment, I

can wander into town, pick up a few groceries and a new pair of slippers to

replace the ones that the dog ate, have a cup of coffee (and a bun, if I am

feeling extravagant), nip into the sous-prefecture to sort out all kinds of

pressing matters, go across the road to the DDE to see what the reason for

declining my planning application might be this week and pop next door to see

Mary.

That is efficient.

[groslard]

I know you teach English, Frenchie, but I don't think you have really understood the essence of British Arrogance!

Settle down in another country, and then lecture it on how it should change to be more like the one you left..now THAT is British..

[Logan]

I cannot agree with most of your post Riff-Raff. I believe in parliamentary democracy because in the end it's the most accountable and least corrupt system man has thought out to date. Of course you can find examples where it fails but in general and over time it has produced the societies with the structure and rule of law we have today. Being whipped along party lines is part of the fabric. Folks vote for a party first based on it's policies then the man/woman second.

In this instance Sarkozy is attempting to change France and fulfil a mandate for which he was elected. Local government in France needs reform. Bureaucracy needs reducing. Not my valuation but that of his think tank and progressive thinkers. Car number plates are such a small thing yet it produces illogical ludites screaming 'tradition'. As the current government tries to get to grips with changing and modernising France so the opposition to it grows. Yet almost 50% of the electorate voted for it in the first place. So parliamentary democracy works because they have the mandate to proceed democratically arrived at. They can ignore the calls of dissent safe in the knowledge that they have the moral and legal high ground. How else would you govern the almost ungovernable?

I know I am over simplifying this subject but unless you fancy reading an essay on the wider principals, perhaps I should quit now and walk the dog in the rain.[:(]

Groslard. As residents we surely are entitled to a voice of opinion. We contribute to the state, invest our capital and vote on local issues. We are members of the EU. Are we to simply hold our tongues and not express a view? Arrogance? I think not. 

 

[raindog]

I agree with Logan there, i've paid taxes in France for more than 20 years, surely that gives me a right to express an opinion about French politics on an open forum?

(not that I have yet...)

that's out of order groslard