chocccie Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 As part of a conversation with a (Jewish) man I worked with, I used the word Jews (the conversation was about his faith, which he liked to talk about a lot - fine by me as I like to learn things). The word was used in the same way I would have said Christians, Sikhs, Pagans, etc, etc.He told me never to use the word "Jew" as it is considered offensive. I thought this to be utter b****s. He was very opinionated, bombasic and loved to put people right (to his way of thinking).But what he said is still playing on my mind. So, if there are any followers (or lapsers) of the Jewish faith - would you ever consider the word "Jew" or "Jews" to be offensive? Assume that the speaker of the word was a perfectly nice person, in a conversation where the word fitted, and there was no unpleasantness associated with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Well Barak Obama doesn't like itbut then he's not a jew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 HiAs nouns 'Jew' 'Jews' both are perfectly ok, as adjectives they would be considered offensive, guess your workmate was just being a tad paranoid ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard-R Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 We lived in Israel for a while and where often asked by Israeli's if we where Jewish, because my now wife is dark. The word Jew was passed around with never a hair raised. Same with everyone of the Jewish faith we know in London, and that's a lot. I can understand a member of the French Jewry not being over pleased being called Juifs, given the history!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 He may be a bit sensitive but I can certainly understand his feeling uncomfortable about you using it. I would never use the term to or in front of a Jewish person unless they were a very close friend and even then I am not comfortable. I believe it does still have connotations and just doesn't sound right for a non Jewish person to use it. It is a different matter using the term if you are Jewish. Just my opinion. [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Why on earth not? I really dont see why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Surely the point is that if the person you are speaking to you objects to the term, you respect their feelings, no?What sort of person would do otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 I have Jewish friends, I have no problems using " Jew, Jewish " when I'm in their company, or with other people they know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil & Pat Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 So what acceptable alternatives can we use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Yes Smudger, I accept what you say but would still like to know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Surely the point is that if the person you are speaking to you objects to the term, you respect their feelings, no?What sort of person would do otherwise?[/quote]I'd give them their due of course [:D]I once fired off an irate email to someone I had bought something from online which went wrong and he was giving me the run around. I was at the end of my patience and called the guy a shyster to which I got a speedy and shirty reply because it turned out he was in fact Jewish [:'(]I never did get my money back [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 That'll teach ya, Erns!We have quite a few Jewish friends. Unavoidable, I suppose, as we are lovers of classical music and there are so very many talented Jewish musicians.As a race, I have enormous admiration for them as I think they are a very intelligent race with great survival instincts (I know, they needed them, poor things)Don't get me onto Middle Eastern politics, however, because I cannot condone in any shape or form the way the Israelis behave out there.But, that's another story, and I'm not here to be controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted November 28, 2008 Share Posted November 28, 2008 Phil and Pat, for some reason the quote function isn't working for me. Not an alternative but from a non Jewish person I feel it is more polite to use the term Jewish not Jew. The latter has been used in the past in a very derogatory way and I wouldn't feel comfortable using it particularly when speaking to a Jewish person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 [quote user="woolybanana"]Yes Smudger, I accept what you say but would still like to know why.[/quote]You'd like to know why what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 [quote user="WJT"]Phil and Pat, for some reason the quote function isn't working for me. Not an alternative but from a non Jewish person I feel it is more polite to use the term Jewish not Jew. The latter has been used in the past in a very derogatory way and I wouldn't feel comfortable using it particularly when speaking to a Jewish person.[/quote]I think that's spot on. There's a world of difference between "Are you Jewish?" and "Are you a Jew?"Which was a question I was once asked just before someone attempted to beat me up. Which is odd, because I'm not Jewish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Easier in French, no difference ... " Vous êtes Juif ?" " Vous êtes Juif? " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocccie Posted November 29, 2008 Author Share Posted November 29, 2008 [quote user="WJT"]Phil and Pat, for some reason the quote function isn't working for me. Not an alternative but from a non Jewish person I feel it is more polite to use the term Jewish not Jew. The latter has been used in the past in a very derogatory way and I wouldn't feel comfortable using it particularly when speaking to a Jewish person.[/quote] but the word "Jewish" has also been used in a very derogatory way, so why do you feel uncomfortable using one and not the other? Though the people I really wanted to hear from were those of the Jewish faith and hear what they think (I doubt they would appreaciate being refered to as "poor things" !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocccie Posted November 29, 2008 Author Share Posted November 29, 2008 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Surely the point is that if the person you are speaking to you objects to the term, you respect their feelings, no?What sort of person would do otherwise?[/quote] Certainly one wouldn't use a word to the person who didn't like it ... but why should one remove it from one's vocabulary entirely (as he desired), on one person's say so. (I've know several, not that many, Jewish people thoughout my life, and not one of them has made the same point.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 This thread is interesting.I have been teaching a group of 17-18 year olds how to do a CV in English because many of them want to get jobs in the English speaking world. As they had work experience with des handicapes and des personnes agees , I suggested that they translate these terms to 'people with special needs' and 'senior citizens'. I did not dream of telling them certain religious groups would be offended by certain terms. I did regretfully have to tell them that the term 'Christian name' was no longer in common usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Âme Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Just as some people consider chairperson to be unnecessarily politically correct while others will insist upon it; it is a question of use of English. Views on current 'correct,' 'polite' or 'acceptable' language vary, and change over time. In my experience, people seem to be more interested in communicating ideas, and generally overlook the odd lapse in accurate expression. I've had slips/errors pointed out to me on occasion, when I was ignorant of the potential inference, and I'm the wiser for it. However, to erase a word from one's vocabulary, on the say so of a single person, seems rather extreme. But then you are asking to get a consensus on this Chocccie so well done you. I'm gentile so can't help with that, sorry.Frenchie - what about " Vous êtes un Juif? " ? Does adding an article make this phrase pejorative? In English 'the Jews' can offend, although it is usually intended as a short version of 'the Jewish community.' What about the capital letter? As I think somebody already pointed out the adjective jew is offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Coeur de Lion Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 We have Jewish friends, but use the word Jewish on the very rare occasion when we are speaking about the subject to them. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the term Jew, but I guess I can see how it can be taken the wrong way.I do think this world needs to get over its hangups on many words. Perhaps removing all these man made boundaries and nationalities would help us to see that we are all the same and only human, not labels. But of course, that will never happen.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nectarine Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Instead of "Jew", perhaps refer to the person as "of Jewish faith". A little pedantic perhaps but surely no-one could take offence at that, since it specifies the faith only and removes any darker meaning about supposed character, etc., which "Jew" can bring to mind.Frankly, however, I think there are far too many people with thin skins, who take offence at anything, which is why we end up with ridiculously politically correct terms for everything now, such as replacing "Christmas" with "winter festival" since someone, somewhere, might be offended. Trouble is, you can no longer call a spade a spade, since that, too, upsets a group of darker skinned people who want the term banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJT Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 I don't think in this case it is a matter of PC gone too far. The term has and still is used in a very derogative way and at least to my ears the term Jewish has not. I know it is not exactly the same but I would put it in the same category as using the short term for someone from Pakistan simply because it has been used in a very negative way. I can go on with other races but I think most people here understand what I am trying to say, it does have connotations. I think it is a different matter when someone of that race or religion uses certain terms about themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 At a 8th May war ceremony speech, the local maire used the term "N-a-z-i" instead of "G-e-r-m-a-n". I thought that it was a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil & Pat Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 [quote user="chocccie"]He told me never to use the word "Jew" as it is considered offensive. [/quote]Did he offer you an alternative that he found acceptable? I don't think the phrase "of the Jewish faith" is really acceptable, Semitism is much more than a faith.Wish I could find the Thesaurus...Not even sure if Semitism is the right word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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