powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Serious question here.Scenario: I work for a French Co, my French is not that good but I understand more than I speak. My immediate Manager is (of course) French who is not 'restrained' in his swearing. His favourite expressions being merde and putain.I happened to be in his office when he was having a 'tirade' at the secretary, whilst I did not fully understand the language (it was somewhat faster than my brain could cope with), he was obviously not happy with her efforts and made copious use of 'putain'. The secretary (who speaks English fluently, being a Philipina) subsequently 'poured out her heart' in the privacy of her own office, in tears to me. I think his swearing at her had really really upset her and I could see her point.The problem is .....Is it my place to have a word in the 'shell like' of my boss or should I just ignore it and keep my head below the parapet like the 'token Englishman' that I often think I am. I believe my boss was totally out of line but what to do??????????????????Edit the **** sound like the famous Russian chap with the first name Vladimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekJ Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Would you think of intervening if it was a man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 No. But I was brought up to treat ladies as ladies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekJ Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I thought equality ruled these days. A bit of a throwaway comment I know but the reality is that only you know what your relationship is with this manager, how important that relationship is to you, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I might have a word with the boss, but I would ask her first if that is what she wants. It can seriously undermine a woman in this position if a male colleague fights her battles for her. The best outcome would be for you to persuade her to confront him and tell him she won't be spoken to like that. Or that she complains through the proper chanels. You might help her by finding out what these are and helping her with a few options. She obviously trusts you, so I think you may well be in a good position to get her to deal with this herself which is really the best thing for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Being relatively 'unversed' in the swearing aspect of French culture, I have no idea how the use of 'put-ain' is viewed in daily life.There are times when I could cheerfully 'swing' for my boss but I like my job, I am well paid and would like to stay that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Neither do I, Steve. However, she was obviously upset, wasn't she, so she needs to do something about it. Far better if she does than you, from all points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote user="cooperlola"]I might have a word with the boss, but I would ask her first if that is what she wants. It can seriously undermine a woman in this position if a male colleague fights her battles for her. The best outcome would be for you to persuade her to confront him and tell him she won't be spoken to like that. Or that she complains through the proper chanels. You might help her by finding out what these are and helping her with a few options. She obviously trusts you, so I think you may well be in a good position to get her to deal with this herself which is really the best thing for everybody.[/quote]Thanks for that Coops,I think one of there are a number of 'issues', being in an expat environment there is not the job security that there may be in other places, particularly for someone like a secretary. Additionally, Philipinas, working in a ''european'' environment do not feel that they can be assertive.I also believe (may be wrong) that he would not have used the same language had the secretary been a 'French' French speaking lady, if you know what I mean.As the 'new boy' (4 months) and non-French, I have to be a bit circumspect. I just happen to feel that he was unreasonable and, because I rarely use bad language myself, I sympathised with her.I feel that just because we work on a building site (albeit a ginormous one) we should not totally give up on civilised behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 The use of the P word is, IMO, totally gratuitous as I can't imagine how it could be applied when criticising someone's work in an OFFICE for goodness sake.Like you, I don't like bullies and it's dreadful when someone in that position could abuse it so blatantly.I wonder whether he wasn't showing off a bit in front of you? I mean, Steve, like this: we're men and she's only a lowly woman secretary and we can behave the way we want to and say demeaning things to her. We're superior..........etc.If you were to, say, treat her with the utmost respect (I know you would anyway, Steve) perhaps even exaggerated politeness, (particularly when he is present) would he sit up and take notice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]The use of the P word is, IMO, totally gratuitous as I can't imagine how it could be applied when criticising someone's work in an OFFICE for goodness sake.Like you, I don't like bullies and it's dreadful when someone in that position could abuse it so blatantly.I wonder whether he wasn't showing off a bit in front of you? I mean, Steve, like this: we're men and she's only a lowly woman secretary and we can behave the way we want to and say demeaning things to her. We're superior..........etc.If you were to, say, treat her with the utmost respect (I know you would anyway, Steve) perhaps even exaggerated politeness, (particularly when he is present) would he sit up and take notice?[/quote]I think that, basically, he is not overburdened with good manners. I would lose track of the daily use of the 'P' word out on site, which is the point really. Out on site is one thing, in the main office is another.I don't think 'showing off ' came into it. It was rapid fire French and everyone knows that my French is not up to that standard. The assumption (if there was one) would be that I wouldn't understand what was was said, so it didn't matter either way.Thank you for the implied compliment [:D] I do try to treat most people with respect, we are, in the expat situation, all there for one reason and as such are all employed for our respective skills. Plus I have my parents to thank for my (possibly misplaced) respectful treatment of ladies,women, girls, gals etc etc.Exaggerated politeness may work, or may just reinforce my 'site given' name of 'Le Comte de Normandie' [:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Monsieur le Comte, respectful treatment of ANYBODY could NEVER be misplaced. It's when we can talk to beggars and lords in exactly the same way that we have truly "arrived" whatever "arriving" means.Nothing to be lost by trying exaggerated gallantry and politeness, IMHO. Mind you, the secretary could be so grateful that she sees you as her knight on horseback and then she might...................oooooh, delicious!Will you please start a blog as Woolybananna has? Can't wait for the "next instalment"![6][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Madame Sweet, vous etes ( or may I be so bold as to use 'tu', no....that would be too presumptive) tros gentile.I have no intention of following the banana down the blog path. As for a Knight on horseback, its been many years since I rode a horse and then the beast was most uncooperative. [:(]Having said that, the secretary is reasonably attractive.........[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote user="powerdesal"]I also believe (may be wrong) that he would not have used the same language had the secretary been a 'French' French speaking lady, if you know what I mean.[/quote]I know exactly what you mean.[:)] I am a swearer myself but on the other hand, I do know how to pick my audience. If somebody finds it offensive (or I think they're the type that might), I don't swear in front of them. Man or woman, doesn't make any difference. Thus if she's upset by it, he shouldn't do it. But it sounds as though he's an insensitive ***** anyway and probably thus doesn't even realise he's doing it any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 I think you are right Coops, I have heard him use it 'sote voce' in front of his wife, who is a delightful lady. (should that be 'soto voce' ??)He can be quite charming when he wants to be .......outside of the work environment. In fact a bit of a chameleon.Le Comte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 One thing to be aware of is while the P... word may be translated as the F... word, which are clearly two different objects, and the M.... word translated as the S.... word which is the same smelly object in both languages the relative strengths as insults can not be translated.What I am trying to say that used in isolation the P word could be equated to the S word and the M word to the F word.Confused? I know that I am!I regularly hear the P word used as an exclamation by very well to do ladies, but use of the M word is really frowned apon.Mind you if he called her a P.... espece de M.... you should have decked him.Does she understand the nuances of swearing in French? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks JR, thats put it in a better perspective,As I understand what you are saying, where I would say Oh S**t, he would use P****n.I am sure she understands fully, she lived /lives in France, is the widow of a Frenchman and is totally fluent in French (or it seems so to me).Perhaps her reaction was just a 'bad day', the boss can be very frustrating at times (often and many). Maybe tomorrow will be 'just another day in Paradise''Decking' him is something I have thought about but then I checked the bank balance. [:P]Le Comte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I really like the Phillipinas I have met and have loved a few. They are by and large gutsy, tough ladies who deserve far better than being sworn at. But PD, in the context, and I know it well, she is most likely to lose a lot, even her job, and she may have kids depending on her money, so, if you decide to get involved, tread on eggshells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I have just seen a good example on French TV just after 8 O clock, OK it was Groland but a humourous piece.A lady (sorry coops!) shop assistant in her 30's was explaining to a lady OAP in a very polite and respectfull way why she was charging €200 for a T shirt, she expalained that she had to pay the Morrocan merchant more and ...................."de coup j'etais obligé de multiplier le prix trente sept fois - Pu***n!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks to all for the input.Its the ladies decision and, as I am sure she would prefer to keep her job, no further action is likely to occur. She was probably having a stressful day which resulted in the tears etc.I will continue to 'not understand' the language..........[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Dear Steve it would not happen in Les Chesfrene.But a couple of questions.Is self preservation important to youTo whom do you owe a duty of care and responsibilityDoes you family and its well doing come into this at all.Do you need the job and if you left or got sacked what are the chances of new employmentCan you live with yourself.Only you can answer the questions and I would not know what to do save let us say in a more 'developed' culture and where certain things should not (but still do happen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 She is probably feeling a bit isolated right now and maybe wondering exactly what to do; whilst I agree with CL's advice so far that she should be making the moves, you might suggest that she talks to HR, whatever, and that she could count on you for verification (or not?)[8-|]Edit, of course it could go either way but it might do both of you a favour and he could find himself on the next plane home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Final update.Had a little chat with her this am, she had 'had words' with the Manager and 'advised' him that she should not be spoken to that way. He apologised. All sorted........till next time, .......he is a sort of work-a-holic and allows himself to get very stressed, then takes it out on people, but is contrite afterwards. Not a good idea IMHO, with more years of experience in the job he might realise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 So there is potentially some good that can come of this and it's important to grasp these things while you can.You work in a multi cultural environment and your boss has had the grace to apologise (Therefore he is human)The secretary has 'Done the right thing' and hopefully it will pay off.The boss though has a diverse team and may not be getting the best from it. If he could be persuaded to sponsor a means of communication where there is a clear statement of what is required (The objective) stated succinctly with an achiveable time frame offered and accepted then he will have the makings of the multicultural SMART objective and can ease up a bit on the more flowery language. (Stated, Measureable, Achievable, Realistic and Time-bound) In truth by F'ing and Blinding he does not paint himself in a good light and he knows it, but he still wants the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote user="BIG MAC"]In truth by F'ing and Blinding he does not paint himself in a good light and he knows it, but he still wants the job done. [/quote]Very very true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 No, no - you've got it all wrong.Getting angry at work is good for your career, apparentlyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7918622.stmSomeone probably got a Doctorate out of this load of old tosh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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