The Riff-Raff Element Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 [quote user="viva"] I did wonder, if the issuing of the cards is linked to UKpassports, how it would be able to easily issue cards to foriegnnationals. Will it be another CSA / Tax Credits style c/o/c/k up?[/quote]Probably. It will need a complex database. This will be built by the lowest bidder. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tag Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I have lived outside the UK for longer than I care to remember and have therefore always had to carry an ID of some sort. The problem is not so much ID, but that I as an individual exist only as an adjunct of that bit of paper or even worse that it gives power to any slimy little bureaucrat to ask for your papers regardless of whether they really need to see them. Further, it gives the right to various organisations to look at my records without either my consent or the assent of a court - in other words "fishing trips" can become the norm. I believe that Blair and Brown have turned our basic rights on their heads by adopting a European position in order ultimately to intergrate the UK further in the EU. By this I mean that under British law you had the right to do anything that was not explicitly forbidden whereas under European law (ie Napoleon), the citizen can only do what is permitted by law. The former is bottom up and the latter top down and to my mind anathema.As a British citizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without being stopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.Our rights have thus been subverted in the name of 'security' of different types and the police and security services have been given a free hand to bully the citizen as they wish. Witness the younger woman who was prosecuted for reading the names of Iraqi dead at the Cenotaph.There needs to be independent legal surveillance of the watchers who should be made to ask for court warrants to snoop on people. For example, stop and search should be justified, identity checks should be justified, video cameras should be justified, as should any withholding of information by the State.We need a new Bill of Rights which guarantees our freedoms and which curtails the rights of the State to hold information unless there is a reason and also forbids the bringing together of data from different sources, such as Soc Sec, Inlnd Revenue, Surveillance, unless there is good reason (as understood by the courts). And which removes most of the PM's Royal Prerogatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 As a British citizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without being stopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.Err, no - on which crisp packet did you read this ? And perhaps an old Bill of Rights is needed first or even a written constitution ?I have no qualms about having to carry i.d. - or I wouldn't live in France - and have never understood why it is not even necessary to carry driving documents in UK but that's another story.The cost is irrelevant - it's not the Govt's money that is being spent and we all know how careful they are whether Blue or Red. As in US of A anything will be done with the excuse of fighting terrorism so just get used to it. Johnnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 [quote user="Iceni"]As a Britishcitizen in UK I have an absolute right to walk the land without beingstopped to prove who I am unless I have committed (or am reasonably suspected of committing) a crime or whatever.Err, no - on which crisp packet did you read this ? And perhaps anold Bill of Rights is needed first or even a written constitution ?[/quote]I believe that Tag is correct in this - there is currently norequirement for a citizen of the UK to carry ID with them in the UK.That does seem very likely to change, and you are almost certainlyright that this little fetish of the current government will be fundedto the hilt to the possible detriment minor stuff like education,health or security measures that might actually work. [Aside: I've always found it slightly alarming that drug smugglers seemto have such an easy time getting stuff into the UK. If you think aboutthe tonnage that does get in, it should be very easy for miscreantsplanning general unpleasentnesses to bring in all the materials neededfairly straightforwardly via the same routes. I think that that israther worrying. Money spent on detection equipment (dogs are good, Iam told) would seem to be a far more sensible use of funds.] Lots of funding does not mean that the system will work though:ambitious computing projects run by UK governments haven't had anenviable track record to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmobile Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 [quote user="Dicksmith"]Sorry, Urko, whoever you may be. It isn't a tax and it isn't stealthy. It's the dim use of Daily Mail clichés that I object to. And no evidence of corruption either. Whatever happened to 'Put up or shut up'?I think you are paranoid, or have something to hide, sorry.[/quote]I know I'm a bit late in arrival, but I disagree, Dick. It's a stealth tax because the proposed cost of a card bears no relation to the cost of running the immensely complicated system that will be required. That will have to be paid out of increased general taxation. The £30 or whatever they say it will be, is just a figure, plucked out of the air, that the government thinks it can get away with charging. They represent it as the cost of the entire scheme.Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I am not personally against ID cards (or the principle ofthem). After all I carry my passport at the moment.However, what does annoy me is that the reasons being givenfor the UK scheme are flawed. All this security, prevention of terrorism,identity fraud, etc. has been shown by experts in the field to just not be thecase. There are other political motivations going on here.Similarly, the element of the biometric data for the UKscheme is flawed. The technology the UK is proposing to use is not yet“mature” enough and can result in mis-identification (and remember whathappened to the British pensioner in south Africa when the CIA decided theyrecognised his name – UK government did nothing to assist the poor bloke).The UK governmentmaintains it will help with regards to identity fraud – however, securityexperts believe that the technology selected could actually increase identityfraud. Security experts in Holland have exposed a weakness in the technologywhich allows data to be "skimmed" from a prototype biometric passportjust 11 yards away. Within two hours they had access to personalinformation, including fingerprints, a digital photo of the passport holder andtheir date of birth. I’m sure that the government will be closingloopholes – but they are dependant on business where often money is thepriority rather than individuals personal security.Last I heard was that you will be forced to get a British IDcard when you next renew your British Passport. And how will I have myfingerprints taken and retina scanned. Will UK gov be setting upappropriate centres in my locality (in France) or will they expect every UKcitizen in France to visit e.g. Paris ?Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Whether one calls it a “stealth tax” or a “revenuegeneration scheme” makes little difference – bottom line seems to be thegovernment want to part people from their money yet again – no choice, probablyno benefit, etc.However, being realistic and despite the extortionate costthe government are intending to charge for the card, they will in practiseprobably end up subsidising the scheme – they really never manage to get thesetechnology things working on time and budgets are drawn and maintained by HansChristian Andersen.Given the significant questions about the governmentestimates for the costs of the scheme I do think the government should beprepared to release more information about the proposed budgets (as requestedby the House of Lords). After allTony/Gordon are not paying for the scheme, the British public are and as suchthey should be prepared to give more info on what they are spending our moneyon (particularly after the “costings” questions raised by knowledgeablepeople).Again being realistic, TB never gives a “monkeys” about thepublic” and happily rides roughshod over anything if he can get away with it –so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Realistic realistic !......perhaps you could enlighten us, as to whichpolitician would give a monkeys and look after the British taxpayersmoney? After all, I am sure you wouldn't want it to look like it was justanother Brit living in France, unable to stop having jibes at the currentBritish government. I am sure that the opposition will eventually havethe rights to see the costs BEFORE, if ever the procedure to get everyperson started on the production of the ID cards.Again being realistic, TB never gives a “monkeys” about thepublic” and happily rides roughshod over anything if he can get away with it –so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.Firstly, what did that actually mean ? and secondly, just for therecord, at what stage does an ex-pat living in France, start to take aninterest and think about the politics of the country that they areactually resident in ? I am curious about the part that states : (particularly after the “costings” questions raised by knowledgeablepeople),this would would imply that Tony and Gordon are not knowledgeablepeople and whatever ones politics, I doubt that either could haverisen to such prominence without having a fair amount of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedon Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Like a lot of these schemes they are simply for the likes of us lackeys to speculate about, but of which we can do nothing if that is what is decided is good for our protection. Hands up, who amongst us believes that forgers won't have made their own cards and plenty of others sooner than the 45 days it was going to take Saddam to send a hail of missiles to Britain. I see a few of you with raised hands think that with iris recognition it will be impossible to make fake ones, but, when the baddies do, and have no doubt about it they will, you might as well call them gift packs as they will contain ALL of your details on the one card, not just your bank details. But, take it easy folks as life is just a lottery, a few actually win the Lottery, some will have their identities stolen, and some will get bird flu , 99.99% of us will not have any of those things happen to us....but it is good to talk just the same.weedon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 [quote user="Miki"]After all, I am sure youwouldn't want it to look like it was just another Brit living in France, unableto stop having jibes at the current British government.[/quote] As a British Passport holder I will be obliged to have aBritish ID card when I next renew my passport (assuming it goes through asmandatory). Also I will have to pay forit. I thus feel that it is quitereasonable for me to pass comment on the scheme despite living in France. [quote user="Miki"]I am sure that the oppositionwill eventually have the rights to see the costs BEFORE, if ever the procedureto get every person started on the production of the ID cards.[/quote] The British government has refused to provide detailed costingsor to justify the basis for its broad published costings on “securitygrounds”. I know we hear that all thetime these days but it appears that the budgets to pay for the scheme are amatter of National Security and cannot be disclosed. The British Government has refused to provide the informationeven to the House of Lords (no ideaabout disclosing it to “the opposition” – again please read what I wrote beforecriticizing it). Thus, in the currentsecurity climate it would seem unlikely that such information will be disclosed(other than by the now “standard leak”). [quote user="Miki"]Again being realistic, TBnever gives a “monkeys” about the public” and happily rides roughshod overanything if he can get away with it – so I doubt anything will be forthcomming.Firstly, what did that actually mean ? [/quote] It means he is driving through his own personal agenda. On occasions his own agenda is at such oddswith the rest of parliament he is failing to get bills passed. On other occasions things are squeezing throughwith a few votes in the clear. This ishardly a consensus. He is using anymeans to justify his personal agenda (e.g. “we must not ignore what the policesay” when it comes to prison without trial for 6 months, whereas “we can ignorewhat the police say” when it comes to changing the licensing hours). We are seeing increasing backbench revoltswithin the Labour party. You may notagree with my observation but I would have expected you to understand thecomment. [quote user="Miki"] …just for the record,at what stage does an ex-pat living in France, start to take an interest andthink about the politics of the country that they are actually resident in ? [/quote] Because I take an interest in the politics of the country Iwas born in, spent most of my life in, am a citizen of, etc. does not mean Itake no interest in French politics. This thread was titled UK Identity Cards. Nothing to do with France and a discussion of French politics wouldbe inappropriate. I think this is justone of you typical comments to get at people (me) – unnecessary so please tryto stop it. [quote user="Miki"]I am curious about the partthat states : (particularly after the “costings” questions raised byknowledgeable people), this would would imply that Tony and Gordon are notknowledgeable people and whatever ones politics, I doubt that eithercould have risen to such prominence without having a fair amount of that.[/quote] Not at all. Thecomment relates to others who have raised comments. The “questions raised by knowledgeable people” has nothing to dowith TB or GB and makes no suggestion about them being knowledgeable orotherwise. Read what was written –there is no implication in relation to Tony Blair nor Gordon Brown. I have used standard English yet you seem tobe trying to put words in my mouth (again). Please read what I wrote and not what you want it to mean. Why am I always having to write long justifications about myposts for you Miki. Most mature peopleare capable of reading what is written without requiring such continualclarification.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.