Very tricky question

[Evianers]

Yes, very tricky this, so if we receive no replies we wont be very surprised. But a challenge to those who know something about the convoluted property laws in France. If one were to purchase a property 'en viager' and after a certain time the owner goes into a nursing home or hospital, what happens to the apartment? Is the owner allowed to rent it out without the agreement of the payee? Or does it have to stand empty - in which case who pays the monthly charges? Does the person paying 'en viager' continue having to pay the same amount until the owner actually dies? What a lot of very difficult questions. Perhaps someone, somewhere knows the answers or even has some experience. If so many thanks in advance.

[Opalienne]

I don't know about the owner's right to rent it out, but I do know that sometimes when this happens the purchasers can move in (and continue to pay the rent until the owner's death).   This happened to friends of ours not so long ago - the old lady from who they have purchased the house en viager decided that it was too big for her, and moved into a flat in the village.   They were then free to occupy the house, and are still paying her the rent, with which she is presumably paying the rent on her flat.  I assume they had some kind of agreement with her that she would not want to move back in, though.

[Opalienne]

It looks as though the owner can rent it out.   See below:

lorsque le viager est occupé, l'acheteur ne dispose pas du droit d'habitation. Il n'est que le nu-propriétaire, l'usufruitier (le vendeur) conserve la droit d'habiter et d'en recueillir les fruits (loyers par exemple).

And yes, the purchaser does have to keep on paying the rent until the owner dies unless there is a clause to the contrary (though I think this is only possible in Belgium and not in France)

[le bouffon]

Tricky because who knows how long the "owner"will be away for,could he sub let until he/she passes away??could the family use the house.....etc!!!

[Opalienne]

It seems clear from what I found above that the owner could sub-let, and also presumably the family could use the house.   But they would have no claim on it - once the owner is dead, that's it and it reverts straight away to the purchaser, with no 'heritage' problems.  Viager is the only way I know of getting round French inheritance laws; given that most French families feel it would be a major crime not to allow their children to inherit the family home I suppose that it why it is quite rare.

[Evianers]

  "Viager is the only way I know of getting round French inheritance laws; given that most French families feel it would be a major crime not to allow their children to inherit the family home I suppose that it why it is quite rare"

Thank you so much for the interesting responses and information. For what it is worth, this property will probably be bought by our son..... good idea or what?

Have a good day everyone.

[Opalienne]

Fine but it absolutely has to be at the proper market value (get a notaire to value it in writing) or you will fall foul of all kinds of problems.   Any other children should agree too, to avoid difficulties later.   This has happened in our village - a son of one of our neighbours bought his grandparents house 'en viager' without getting the consent of his parents or his brother, for the very good reason that they are thoroughly unpleasant and do anything they can to stand in his way in everything he does.   Despite the fact that the grandmother still lives with him, and is happy and well looked-after, he has had nothing but problems since, both legal and indeed physical - being 'denounced' to the tax authorities (who found nothing wrong) and his children being threatened with a gun by his father being just two examples.

[Loiseau]

Some friends of mine have had experience of buying a property en viager. The purchase price is all carefully calculated by the notaire according to the age of the person selling etc (and presumably the perceived life expectancy of the seller).

I seem to remember my friends explaining to me that they (the buyers) had to pay a set amount each month to the lady seller, who of course went on living in "her" house.  But that once she went into an old folks' home, the buyers had to pay a *higher* monthly amount to the old lady. This being on the grounds that from that point they could use the house themselves, or could rent it out to somebody and therefore could theoretically get an income from it.

Nobody threatened them with a shot gun at any time, though the old lady's nephew (her only living relative) was pretty narked to learn on her eventual death that he had not inherited it as he thought he might.

Angela

[Brilec]

[quote user="Loiseau"]

 though the old lady's nephew (her only living relative) was pretty narked to learn on her eventual death that he had not inherited it as he thought he might.

Angela

[/quote]

But presumably he did inherit the proceeds from the sale, unless she had squandered the whole lot?

[Teamedup]

Brilec, he wouldn't earn anything from the sale would he if she had 'sold' her house to the person who was paying the viager rent. I must confess I am never quite sure how all this works in reality.

[Opalienne]

He couldn't have inherited the house.   Viager is the only way to disinherit  family (legally).   Once the house is sold 'en viager' (which means that the purchaser pays a lump sum called a 'bouquet' and also a monthly 'rent' to the vendor) no-one else can inherit it, and when the vendor dies it belongs 100% to the purchaser.  If you are not bothered about family squabbles, it's a good way of making sure you can cash in on the value of your property while you are still alive.    It's a bit like the reversion system in the UK, though there people tend to sell their houses to financial institutions rather than individuals.

[Teamedup]

Opalienne that is how I thought it should work.