18 th June

[NormanH]

You may have noticed a lot of hoo hah in the French press today about the 'Appel de 18 juin'.

De Gaulle safe in London made a radios broadcast saying that the French had lost a battle, but not the war, and called on people to resist.

They love to dwell on this as an antidote to the idea of surrender and to comfort their national pride..

Strangely enough there is not much mention of an other important event which happened on the 18th June:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo

[woolybanana]

Just a minor event really!

[Gardian]

I'm halfway through reading England's Last War Against France (Fighting Vichy 1940-1942) by Colin Smith.

Recommended: it tells of the 'quiet' conflict in the Middle East, as well as the British destruction of part of the French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir.

The political dilemmas of the time are analysed well.  De Gaulle was no saviour, nor (perhaps) was Petain a complete surrenderist.  

[Bugsy]

[quote user="NormanH"]They love to dwell on this as an antidote to the idea of surrender and to comfort their national pride..[/quote]

Harsh comment on a subject that no one, who hasn't experienced invasion and capitulation by their government, can really comment on.

All my knowledge, albeit, limited, of this subject suggests incredible acts of bravery from thousands of ordinary french people.

We drive past their memorials every day.

.

[Frenchie]

Well said Bugs, it is not really a matter of national pride, but rather of respect and admiration for those who fought and often gave their lives for us to live in France today.

I have not experienced the invasion of my country, but my grand parents did, they ve told me so many stories about that period, they were not officially in the resistance, but they did things for their neighbourhood that I find very brave.

And l'appel du 18 juin was  some light at the end of the tunnel, a spark, a new hope, against the ugly governmement that had given up and was collaborating .

Yes, I feel some emotion when I hear l'appel du 18 juin.

 

[mint]

[quote user="Gardian"]

I'm halfway through reading England's Last War Against France (Fighting Vichy 1940-1942) by Colin Smith.

Recommended: it tells of the 'quiet' conflict in the Middle East, as well as the British destruction of part of the French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir.

The political dilemmas of the time are analysed well.  De Gaulle was no saviour, nor (perhaps) was Petain a complete surrenderist.  

[/quote]

And don't forget, Gardian, that the history books are normally written by the victors.

[Gardener]

De Gaulle did far more good for the war by staying in London than he could have if he had stayed in France.

There is no doubt that his speech did inspire and rally French men and women and I'm immensely grateful that these brave men and women took great risks in an occupied country not only to derail the German war machine but also to aid the escape of allied soldiers etc.

[woolybanana]

Normie my old worm, you know I usually agree with you slavishly, but this time you have got it worng; check out the Battle of Lille for example (28th May - 1st June, 1940) for an example of French heroism, despite having first been led by men like Gammelin who should have been shot!

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6697      (scroll down the page a bit and it is there)

[suej]

 

Frenchie said:

' it is not really a matter of national pride, but rather of respect and admiration for those who fought and often gave their lives for us to live in France today.'

 

 

 'Chapeau' Frenchie.... I hear what you are saying  and appreciate your feelings.  I think you have expressed very simply and genuinely what a lot of  us, even those not born in this country, feel too.

I can only try to imagine what it must have been like to live in a country that was occupied.........

What pain and waste is war- for both sides.

 

 

 

 

[Frenchie]

Thanks Sue, I feel understood...

This morning I even wondered if I would keep posting on this forum, I thought it was maybe useless if I couldn't share my most basic values with anyone else.

Thanks for your words, they go straight to my heart.

[Bugsy]

I'll tell you when its time to leave Reg and that day has not yet arrived.

Just keep posting and ignore the ignorant, sad and twisted.

Works for me, as you well know. [Www]

Here is something to cheer you up.

[:D][:D][:D]

.

[NormanH]

The 'twist' in this thread was yours when you diverted my point about the Battle of Waterloo into a discussion if the Resistance, as if you have some sort of moral superiority because you have driven past a few memorials.

The fact is that the two  events happened on the same day, and yet that  co-incidence gets hardly a mention.

 No doubt you don't think that Waterloo is worth remembering?

[nomoss]

[quote user="NormanH"]The 'twist' in this thread was yours when you diverted my point about the Battle of Waterloo into a discussion if the Resistance, as if you have some sort of moral superiority because you have driven past a few memorials.

The fact is that the two  events happened on the same day, and yet that  co-incidence gets hardly a mention.

 No doubt you don't think that Waterloo is worth remembering?
[/quote]

 

Would you really expect the French to celebrate the Battle of Waterloo?

I don't think many Brits would celebrate the Battle of Yorktown, although the French might like to.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="NormanH"]They love to dwell on this as

an antidote to the idea of surrender and to comfort their national

pride..[/quote]

[quote user="NormanH"]The 'twist' in this thread was yours when you diverted my point about the Battle of Waterloo into a discussion if the Resistance, as if you have some sort of moral superiority because you have driven past a few memorials.

[/quote]

I think the 'twist' is all yours Norman, I merely responded to your original insensitive comment (posted above to refresh your memory).

As to "moral superiority" well, if a reasonable understanding of the facts appertaining to those events as opposed to a blinkered, bigoted view, makes me morally superior in your eyes, so be it.

.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

The idea of celebrating any battle or war repulses me.

It was another time, caused by other people and the only thoughts I have are to the millions of innocents who died as a result of very few people.

[NickP]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]The idea of celebrating any battle or war repulses me. It was another time, caused by other people and the only thoughts I have are to the millions of innocents who died as a result of very few people.[/quote]

I don't think most of us celebrates a war, but some of us do like to remember the people who died and those who survived, fighting so that the likes of you and I can write with freedom of expression  on forums such as this.

[Russethouse]

 Well RC, if it hadn't been for the many acts of bravery by the men and women remembered yesterday you may never may have had or indeed wanted the opportunity to live in France - I don't think its a celebration, more a case of showing respect.

[Quillan]

In the military we may celebrate battles but we never celebrate wars. Battles because we won like the Battle of Britain because it helped keep Great Britain free. We never celebrate wars but we remember the brave who gave their lives to keep us free. The French resistance played a very important role in WW2 and without them the invasion of France and the defeat of Germany may either have not happened or could have cost so many more lives. It is very important that we remember all those that 'answered the call' whoever and wherever they were.

[Gardener]

According to French TV, it was never celebrated before for political reasons eg presidents after de Gaulle trying to put the de Gaulle (domestic years) behind them. The remaining veterans were full of admiration for Sarkozy for this commemoration as it has been a long time since they had been together and not likely to happen again.  The veterans also recounted tales of how they would dine out in London only to find that their bills had already been paid by British people, they had nothing but praise for the hospitality they received. I was quite dismayed by some of the comments in the UK gutter press in relation to this event, pity the ignoramuses hadn't read the SOE in France by MRD Foot,( difficult to find now but an excellent read)  before they let their fingers run away with their keyboard.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Bugsy"]I'll tell you when its time to leave Reg and that day has not yet arrived.

Just keep posting and ignore the ignorant, sad and twisted.

Works for me, as you well know. [Www]

Here is something to cheer you up.

[:D][:D][:D]


.

[/quote]

Thanks my friend, it did make me smile.. [:)]

I prefer your bike yet! [:)]

[Frenchie]

I love what I ve just read, such important words that convey what I was trying to say earlier in this thread. As you all know, I'm French, and sometimes wors don't come as easy as they would in French to express my feelings or opinions, especially when I'm a bit upset..

So thanks Sue, Nick P, Russethouse, Quillan, Bugs ,  for the words you ve used :

 Respect , we remember the brave.. Freedom..

Says it all, really.

 

[Frenchie]

I wanted to come back to the forum and wondered why I didn't get the usual link............

I had typed " France freedom " instead of  " France forum ".....................................................

Some of you may not know " Le chant des partisans"

it is a tributeto those who have have paid the highest price, for us to live free and for values to  remain.

Each time I hear this song I have goose pimples, like so many French people.

The translation at the bottom of the video is not good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUZWlf_vuKg

[Gluestick]

I'm totally surprised at the hostile and anti-French feeling expressed earlier in this thread by some.

De Gaulle didn't "Run Away": nor were the French happy at the concept of "Capitulation". De Gaulle, unlike Petain and his shambles of a government, De Gaulle was a true patriot and was determined to continue the fight.

The famous London broadcast was simply a precursor: De Gaulle and his Free French Forces gradually re-captured all French colonies.

Not only as an acting Brigadier General did De Gaulle lead one of the only successful counter attacks (Armoured) against the German army in 1940, he had enjoyed an illustrious career and service record in WWI and his seminal treatise on armoured warfare and tanks was considered the textbook: so much so that the German army slavishly copied his military strategies therein espoused.

What must be remembered, was the reality that France lost the cream of its young men in WWI: 

French servicemen killed and injured 6.1 Million:

British (And empire) ditto                 3.1 Million:

It was also economically devastated by the Great War (Despite the promised reparations under the Versailles Treaty): and suffered useless self-serving politicians up to and including Petain and Pierre Leval.

As WW II ran to its conclusion, De Gaulle led the French forces and was determined France would be recognised in the final outcomes: thanks to his energy and determination, for example, when Berlin was divided and under the Four Power Agreement, France was one of those powers.

Whilst forming part of the immediate post war government, De Gaulle soon resigned: luckily for France and Europe, however, he was soon persauded to return.

If not then with the backbiting and intrique, France would probably have become a communist state.

It is thanks to De Gaulle that France enjoys a now stable Fifth Republic: and that it has endured for so long: the third and fourth failing in political chaos very quickly.

It is also because of De Gaulle that France now enjoys stable infrastructure and economic success: conspicuous by their absence in 1958.

This man was a real and true "Son of France" and a patriot: and at least if nothing else, he possessed immense dignity and presence; as did his wife.

Somewhat different from the midget poseur and his bed-hopping wife who now occupy the Elyse..............

Some respect is deserved for one's host country: rather than cynical sniping and the repetition of mythical halftruths and calumnies.

[woolybanana]

Amen, Gluey, amen!!

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

I'm totally surprised at the hostile and anti-French feeling expressed earlier in this thread by some.

De Gaulle didn't "Run Away": nor were the French happy at the concept of "Capitulation". De Gaulle, unlike Petain and his shambles of a government, De Gaulle was a true patriot and was determined to continue the fight.

The famous London broadcast was simply a precursor: De Gaulle and his Free French Forces gradually re-captured all French colonies.

Not only as an acting Brigadier General did De Gaulle lead one of the only successful counter attacks (Armoured) against the German army in 1940, he had enjoyed an illustrious career and service record in WWI and his seminal treatise on armoured warfare and tanks was considered the textbook: so much so that the German army slavishly copied his military strategies therein espoused.

What must be remembered, was the reality that France lost the cream of its young men in WWI: 

French servicemen killed and injured 6.1 Million:

British (And empire) ditto                 3.1 Million:

It was also economically devestated by the Great War (Despite the promised reparations under the Versailles Treaty): and suffered useless self-serving politicians up to and including Petain and Pierre Leval.

As WW II ran to its conclusion, De Gaulle led the French forces and was determined France would be recognised in the final outcomes: thanks to his energy and determination, for example, when Berlin was divided and under the Four Power Agreement, France was one of those powers.

Whilst forming part of the immediate post war government, De Gaulle soon resigned: luckily for France and Europe, however, he was soon persauded to return.

If not then with the backbiting and intrique, France would probably have become a communist state.

It is thanks to De Gaulle that France enjoys a now stable Fifth Republic: and that it has endured for so long: the third and fourth failing in political chaos very quickly.

It is also because of De Gaulle that France now enjoys stable infrastructure and economic success: conspicuous by their absence in 1958.

This man was a real and true "Son of France" and a patriot: and at least if nothing else, he possessed immense dignity and presence; as did his wife.

Somewhat different from the midget poseur and his bed-hopping wife who now occupy the Elyse..............

Some respect is deserved for one's host country: rather than cynical sniping and the repition of mythical halftruths and calumnies.

[/quote]

 

Hear! hear!