Roma: EU to take legal action against France

[velcorin]

http://www.leparisien.fr/international/roms-bruxelles-veut-entamer-une-action-en-justice-contre-la-france-14-09-2010-1067961.php

The grounds of the action are that the French Govn specifically targetted Roma. Therefore it is a racist policy.

Seems the EU have eventually caught up with my analysis.

If Sarko had targetted all EU citizens living in France illegally (including all the Brits not declaring tax, or with the correct healthcare) then it would have been fine. However, he choose to target ONE racial group. So, guilty are charged M'lud.

Flip side of this, is that Sarko can't back down. Watch the target subtly move, form just the Roma, to actively checking all EU citizens. Watch out in the Dordogne[:D]

[Patmobile]

It might be considered a racist policy if there were no other criteria for action other than being "Roma".  However, as I read it the government called for action to clear illegal encampments of all types - adding, perhaps unwisely, Roma encampments as a priority.

I reckon in a proper court any reasonably competent lawyer could argue sucessfully that the government meant no racial bias, merely setting an order in which action was to be taken against any and all offenders, excepting none.

There might also be an argument as to whether "Roma" is in fact a distinct race or just a name for people of no particular race or nationality who live a nomadic way of life. 

If it goes to court France should win this case.

Patrick  

[Quillan]

Well I suppose it takes the eye of Belgium for a bit and the mega problems there. I suspect France will be fined again and then not pay up again. The Brits in Dordogneshire have nothing to worry about if they did everything right when they moved there and are not a burden on the French state, if not then tough luck I suppose although personally I don't think they have anything to worry about.

[pachapapa]

....I reckon in a proper court any reasonably competent lawyer ...... Well that effectively rules out any posible litigation in france.

But following your line of thought that, a priori, gets SNCF off the hook during the Vichy France Era; they were just transporting a mixed group of undesirables of multiple creeds and ethnicities.

But I fancy with a proper court and VERY competent lawyers in california it wont be a done deal; interesting to see how it turns out though as there are similar TGV projects for Texas,the Chicago area, Florida, NewYork, etc.

[velcorin]

[quote user="Patmobile"]It might be considered a racist policy if there were no other criteria for action other than being "Roma".  However, as I read it the government called for action to clear illegal encampments of all types - adding, perhaps unwisely, Roma encampments as a priority. 
 
[/quote]

As of yesterday Hortefeux did sign a new circular removing the reference to Roma, and changing it to all illegal camps.

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Patmobile"]There might also be an argument as to whether "Roma" is in fact a distinct race or just a name for people of no particular race or nationality who live a nomadic way of life. 
[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Particularly have a look at 'Origins'.

As you suggested, I'm considering changing my forum name.

 

[Patmobile]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

But following your line of thought that, a priori, gets SNCF off the hook during the Vichy France Era; they were just transporting a mixed group of undesirables of multiple creeds and ethnicities.

But I fancy with a proper court and VERY competent lawyers in california it wont be a done deal; interesting to see how it turns out though as there are similar TGV projects for Texas,the Chicago area, Florida, NewYork, etc.

[/quote]

The crux of this very different case is that these people, Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals etc., mostly of French nationality, were being rounded up in their own country, having committed no crime other than belonging to a particular racial, religious or genetic group, and knowingly transported by SNCF to slavery or death camps.

It's a completely different case in almost every way.

Sarkozy's government has not infringed the Human Rights of the Roma shanty dwellers.  They have not complied with the law and are expelled (though with financial comfort) to their country of origin where they are not enslaved, tortured or shot, and they are not prevented from returning whenever they like.  Moreover, they will be permitted to stay, the next time, provided they are in full compliance with France's legitimate requirement that they have jobs or are capable of supporting themselves, and are not breaking the law by creating unlicensed encampments.

Patrick

[Patmobile]

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]

[quote user="Patmobile"]There might also be an argument as to whether "Roma" is in fact a distinct race or just a name for people of no particular race or nationality who live a nomadic way of life. 

[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Particularly have a look at 'Origins'.

As you suggested, I'm considering changing my forum name.

 [/quote]

Hi Albert,

I'm not saying there is no Roma, Romany, Rom, or whatever race, just that even to start to prove an act of racism you would potentially have to overcome first any defence argument that various groups of Romanian and Bulgarian travellers camping illegally could not be considered to be of one identifiable racial type.  

Patrick

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

But any French government statements relating to 'Roma' (or its synonyms) can only be interpreted as referring to that (definitely) identifiable ethnic group.

[Quillan]

I was under the impression that these people are part of the group of EU countries that require a Carte de Séjour  to stay in France. Part of getting one is the same as it used to be for us Brits, E106, money in bank to prove you have enough to live here and not be a burden on the state. France is using this as a tool to get rid of people from within that group of EU countries that don't have, nor can they get, a Carte de Séjour.

[velcorin]

Absolutely Albert.

France has legitimate rights to expel EU citizens who fail to comply with it's laws. However, when France, represented by it's Govn, specifically, and continously, refers to a particular ethinic/racial group, that is not acceptable. Patently many, many other EU citizens fail to comply with the same laws, but are not targetted, which only reinforces the EU case.

[Patmobile]

I'm not arguing any moral point here.  I'm simply suggesting Brussels should butt out and shut up.  There is no point them wasting European taxpayers' money trying to take such a weak case to court.

The Brussels bureaucrats simply can't say that other EU citizens wouldn't be treated in the same way - no other vagrant ethnic group from another EU country has taken advantage of EU rules to come to France and set up shanty encampments.  But, if large parties of Celts, say from Cornwall and Wales, or Gaels from Ireland and Scotland came into France and squatted illegally on public and private land, are they saying they would not be seen as lawbreakers by the French government, and be treated in some other more favourable way?  Are they suggesting the French government would not make it a priority to clean up the camp sites and send the vagrants back?   Are they suggesting the name of the ethnic group the squatters, themselves, proudly claim should not be used when discussing them?

If Brussels could give examples of different official French treatment for different races in the same circumstances they might stand a chance of winning a court case, otherwise they should stop wasting everyone's money and time by threatening pointless legal action. 

Patrick

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Pat,

How much effort has the French government made over the years to deal with the (non-EU) people trying to get to the UK, starting with the original Sangatte camp?

[Frederick]

The fact remains Romania and the other states with a Roma population have failed over the past years to deal with this section of their population and provide for them. so they now see the grass is greener anywhere out of Romania .  

 Are French  tax payers now prepared to see their hard earned cash go to improve the lot of the  Roma and give then the standard of care. support ,education for children and decent acomodation they should have had at home in Romania  now they are free to pitch up on  French  doorsteps .?

 Romania seems happy to see the back of them .and no doubt will encourage many more to move out . . Or do the French want to see the "problem " sent back to where it should have been dealt with in the first place  .  My money is on the French supporting their return ..

[NormanH]

[quote user="velcorin"]

Absolutely Albert.

France has legitimate rights to expel EU citizens who fail to comply with it's laws. However, when France, represented by it's Govn, specifically, and continously, refers to a particular ethinic/racial group, that is not acceptable. Patently many, many other EU citizens fail to comply with the same laws, but are not targetted, which only reinforces the EU case.

[/quote]

Quite, including a number of British 'travellers' whose vans are an eyesore.

The directive said 'La circulaire qui y a été élaborée, signée par le ministre de l'intérieur le 5 août, stipulait que "300 campements ou implantations illicites devront avoir été évacués d'ici trois mois, en priorité ceux des Roms".

Why Roms ( an ethnic group)  in priority ?

La Convention européenne des droits de l'homme, dont Paris est signataire, interdit en effet toute distinction sur la base de l'origine ethnique

[pachapapa]

 "that Monsieur Sarkozy has a heart attack."

[velcorin]

Not sure Catholic priests should really be praying for bad things[:D]

[Salty Sam]

Can't understand what all the fuss is about. Does it now mean I shall have to revert to a tent ?

[Frederick]

No Salty   You down grade to one of these

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Salty Sam"]

Can't understand what all the fuss is about. Does it now mean I shall have to revert to a tent ?

[/quote]

No double axles on any of those campingcars for manouches, so they would be able to go into any camping municipal.

An economic alternative to assuage the thousands of camping sites for "gens du voyage" which contrary to french legislation have never been implemented; the french communes prefering to pay fines instead. Much the same procedure to the NON construction of social housing in the land of liberté, egalité et fraternité.

[pachapapa]

It would appear that Angela has pulled out of supporting the "psikotic dwarf" in a recent report by the Beeb; Berlusconi is still right behind him though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11338112

[NickP]

Papachapa wrote:

An economic alternative to assuage the thousands of camping sites for "gens du voyage" which contrary to french legislation have never been implemented; the french communes prefering to pay fines instead. Much the same procedure to the NON construction of social housing in the land of liberté, egalité et fraternité.

Not true, there is a purpose built site for Travellers/Gypsies in Montoire Sur Loir, and may I say kept in immaculate condition by the users and the council, also the  Centre region has quite a good stock of social housing.

[5-element]

As PPP says, many maires  and communes prefer to pay the fines rather than provide camping ground space for travellers.

As some say in this Le Monde article: "La loi, je m'en fous!"

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2010/07/30/aires-d-accueil-des-gens-du-voyage-pourquoi-la-loi-n-est-pas-respectee_1393727_3224.html

[NickP]

[quote user="5-element"]

As PPP says, many maires  and communes prefer to pay the fines rather than provide camping ground space for travellers.

As some say in this Le Monde article: "La loi, je m'en fous!"

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2010/07/30/aires-d-accueil-des-gens-du-voyage-pourquoi-la-loi-n-est-pas-respectee_1393727_3224.html

[/quote]

 

It's panto time! Oh no he didn't, he said  "which contrary to french legislation have never been implemented;"

[pachapapa]

[quote user="NickP"]Papachapa wrote:

An economic alternative to assuage the thousands of camping sites for "gens du voyage" which contrary to french legislation have never been implemented; the french communes prefering to pay fines instead. Much the same procedure to the NON construction of social housing in the land of liberté, egalité et fraternité.

Not true, there is a purpose built site for Travellers/Gypsies in Montoire Sur Loir, and may I say kept in immaculate condition by the users and the council, also the  Centre region has quite a good stock of social housing.

[/quote]

I try normally to avoid pointless tit for tat but your apparent suggestion that ONE well run site in the department of Loir et Cher implies by some curious process of proof by induction to the effect that ALL departments in france are in compliance with the Departmental Schèma required by the Loi Besson 2 really rather amusing.

Perhaps you might request the moderators to move it to the joke of the week section. At least I find it hilarious.[:D]