Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Mr Clair and I had been considering changing our power-hungry plasma-screen TV (bought for next to nothing in 2009) for a newfandangled LED-3D-SmartTV thingybob...Mr Clair already knew which one he wanted and where to buy it from... not one of my usual online shops and one about which I'd read a few negative comments, but the price difference was considerable and they have a drop-off delivery point at Géant in Aurillac, so I went against my gut feeling, relented and placed the order, paying through Paypal.A week later, the TV is switched on, the various devices connected and all is well... until the screen goes black and my nightmare begins.Although it's a bank holiday weekend, someone answers the phone at the online shop and I'm asked to call the manufacturer's(Samsung) tech services on Monday.Samsung take the details and suggest either a tech visit within 15-20 days or, as the purchase is still within the time frame, I could tell the online shop I'd changed my mind about the purchase.The online shop accepts I can change my mind, but reminds me I'll have to pay for the return of the TV, which might necessitate a transporter pick-up from my home or from the shop where I collected it. I object and ask for a supervisor. I'm told someone will contact me within 48-72 hours.Several identical emails arrive from the online shop "Customer Care" dept, each one automatically generated by my calls, each email expressing concern about my problem and asking me to supply the same details again.I get slightly concerned and open a claim through Paypal... just in case...Several days go by without any contact from the online shop, so I call again, and this time, I tell them I want to forget the whole thing, including their poor performance, and demand a refund as the TV is not up to its job. They accept my request andyet another auto-generated email arrives (same fake concern and request for the details)...Then I get another email from them, saying that Samsung has told them that I had refused their suggested repair, so now the online shop considers they have done all they were obligated to do and my request for a refund is denied and that's that. File closed.At that stage, I'm 13 days into the legal retraction period of 14 days. I can still change my mind, but I'll have to pay to return the TV, and I don't trust the online shop not to find a way to delay or reduce the refund... I'm fuming...I contact Samsung again, give them a verbal lashing and they arrange for a technician to visit within 2 days.I raise a formal complaint through Paypal. Paypal confirm that the online shop has to reply to their request for info within 7 days.In the meantime, the Samsung tech arrives as expected and gets the TV going.I received an email from Paypal a few days later to say that they have studied my claim and ruled in my favour! The money - 650€ - has been transferred back to my bank account,and I haven't heard anything from the online shop... yet...Despite the manner in which the problem was handled, the online shop has acted within the law, even if this has been applied in the strictest possible way. The option to repair or exchange/refund is the seller's to make, not the buyer. With hindsight, it's clear that the prices are so competitive that they cannot possibly entertain the cost of transporting goods for repair, exchange or refund every time something goes wrong. It is my gut feeling that this online shop has simply ignored the Paypal request for info about the problem, either through ignorance of Paypal's system, through laziness or because of overwhelmed staff, and that Paypal simply refunded the purchase according to their own T&C. I doubt that the online shop has even realised (yet) that they have a shortfall...In future, I'll stick to Amazon, Darty and FNAC, and I'll pay through Paypal again. I should have trusted my gut feeling. The potential saving is definitely not worth the hassle, the worry, the concern and the frustration.So... can I have my cake and eat it, I wonder? [Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Clair, you never know, you might just have got yourself a free TV[:D]I have something similar to tell but it's not a TV, just 2 telephones sans fil.After I bought the phones, I changed my mind as I'd decided on another model (after advice on this forum). But, I did take the precaution of ringing my bank. The bank then reclaimed my money.The on-line shop said I'd have to wait for x number of days before cancelling. By the time I got the email to say I could cancel, I decided that I couldn't be bothered with all the hassle and I contacted my bank to pay the money.BUT, the on-line shop had to ask for the money again that the bank had reclaimed. Are you still with me?Time passed, the phones arrived, we unpacked them and one of the plastic thingies that hold the lid for the battery compartment was already broken. So I contacted the shop and asked them for a return label and said I'd like another model or, if I didn't find the model I wanted, I'd like a refund.That was about 3 weeks ago, nobody's taken the money for the phones, nobody's answered my email, no any sort of contact. I check my bank account and no money's been taken.I guess these are cheapo made-in-China phones and nobody wants them back.Alas not the same with my rowing machine which hasn't arrived and I had to fill in a form AND write a letter to my bank to try and claim the money back. It's serious money this time so I don't know what will happen there[:(]As you say, Amazon's fine and Darty though I don't know Fnac but I HAVE bought from Cdiscount and they seem OK but I haven't had to contact their customer services so the jury's really still out on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 [quote user="mint"]... I HAVE bought from Cdiscount and they seem OK but I haven't had to contact their customer services so the jury's really still out on that one. [/quote]I couldn't possibly comment... [Www] [Www][Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 So, Clair, you want the beurre and the argent du beurre!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 [quote user="woolybanana"]So, Clair, you want the beurre and the argent du beurre!!![/quote]Actually, I already have the beurre and l'argent du beurre...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 And I thought you had the upright behaviour and morals of a mother superior!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 What on earth did I do or say to give you that impression? [blink] [8-)]If the shop in question decide they want paying for the TV, they'll have to provide whatever details I decide I'll need to consider their request.They may have to provide them again.And again.And, as they said to me in their numerous emails, "failure to reply within 7 days will lead to the file being closed." (Sans retour de votre part sous 7 jours, nous serons dans l'obligation de clôturer ce dossier.)If I'm satisfied with the details they provide, I'll consider the request, then decline it because I have proof I have already paid for the darned TV. They told me so themselves in their email when they agreed to deliver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 You sound like Mr Salmond! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 [quote user="woolybanana"]You sound like Mr Salmond![/quote]Not sure if that's meant as an insult or a compliment... [8-)]I'm sure we'll both fall flat on our face soon enough...! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The main thing, Clair, you can watch your new TV! Let them sort out the mess they've made.But no wonder the french economy is rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Is it not Euopean Law that you can reject the goods not that the seller can decide if they wish to repair, replace or refund? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 I think there might be some confusion somewhere along the line...There is the retraction period where the buyer of online goods has 14 days to change his mind and return the goods, no questions asked, bearing in mind that the return costs are out of his pocket, and the goods must be received by the shop in a resalable condition. There is a specific procedure usually hidden in the shop's website. The shop must be advised of the return within the legal time-frame (14 calendar days) and they forward an authorisation code to be included in the package. Otherwise they can refuse the delivery/return of the goods.That is different from rejecting goods as unfit for purpose or unsuitable.This is possible within specific conditions.If/when something doesn't work as it should, the buyer's recourse is with the shop in the first instance; the shop must take action, either with a repair or a replacement/refund.The buyer can demand a replacement or refund, but the choice remains with the shop. That choice is dictated by the value of the goods against the cost of the repair or replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 [quote user="PaulT"]Is it not Euopean Law that you can reject the goods not that the seller can decide if they wish to repair, replace or refund?[/quote]I believe France, as with all EU member states must adhere to the Distance Selling Regulations.q.v.Clair I am sure will correct this if I am wrong.Under UK law (Sale of Goods Act 1979) and generally under the law of contract, goods must be "Of merchantable quality": also they must enjoy "Fitness for purpose".(n.b. The original Sales of Goods Act received royal assent in 1893 and is a core aspect of contract law)Additionally, in UK the Consumer Credit Act, (1974 and revised 2006), means the credit provider is equally liable under any contract of sale.Which is precisely why whenever I purchase anything for in excess of £100.01Pence, I pay by credit card!One useful thing to remember; The 2006 Act expanded the financial scope of the act to £25,000 and also provided small one man businesses were included when purchasing goods and services: hitherto the CCA was reserved for private individuals.Not sure how French contract law treats the consumer, however, it an extremely useful legal weapon for sorting out less than honest traders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 [quote user="Clair"]If the shop in question decide they want paying for the TV, they'll have to provide whatever details I decide I'll need to consider their request.They may have to provide them again.And again.And, as they said to me in their numerous emails, "failure to reply within 7 days will lead to the file being closed." (Sans retour de votre part sous 7 jours, nous serons dans l'obligation de clôturer ce dossier.)If I'm satisfied with the details they provide, I'll consider the request, then decline it because I have proof I have already paid for the darned TV. They told me so themselves in their email when they agreed to deliver![/quote]I am almost hoping now that they do realise they havnt been paid!Heres hoping the repair holds out and it runs properly for many years.The "nous serons dans l'obligation" disgusts me and what makes it worse is that most people would just accept that kind of intimidation.Can there be any other country where companies treat their customers in such a manner and where people accept it as normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 That's the thing, you see... It's not that the law isn't followed or applied, because it is. As strictly as possible, right up to the line.My frustration came from the manner in which the problem was handled. The 5 or 6 different people I spoke to over several days and several calls made all the right noises and said all the things they needed to say to pacify me and get me off the phone (by the way, the tel n° shown on their web pages is an expensive one and I had to scour their T&C pages to find a tel n° at local cost), but when it came down to it, nobody actually did anything to resolve the problem apart from giving me a tel n° for Samsung... the same n° I had found when I had looked at Samsung's website.At no time did anyone call me or return any of my calls. All the conversations were initiated by me and every time, I had to jump through the same hoops to end up in the exact same position.I was pretty confident I would get a resolution one way or another, either through the shop or through Paypal, but I was frustrated by how passively obstructive these people were. They say they're there to help, but in fact, they simply go through the motions until the customer gets off the line.I have learnt to choose my battles along the way, but that doesn't mean I'm a pushover, so I'll play them the same way they played me. I'll end up giving them their money...probably... but I'll try to have some fun along the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The major pity is that in the event they do phone you back, there's no mechanism that allows you to charge them a premium rate for anwering your phone....now THAT would be really worthwhile!I so loved that story about the bloke in the UK that told some company that if they didn't stop phoning him with unsolicited marketing calls he would charge them for his time when answering and finally managed to get them to pay! (This comes at a moment where, for the first time in ages, I answered our landline today and actually realised it was OH. His was the first phone call we've had in weeks which wasn't from someone on the Indian subcontinent wanting to know about my car accident, trying to solve my non existent problem with Windows, or attempting to sell me some other spurious "service" I don't want to even discuss, let alone purchase) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 It is a relief to know that this happens even to French people Clair.I am currently battling with my insurance company over my stolen mobility scooter (more detail perhaps on another thread later).They have sent me a completely inappropriate form to fill in with questions about 'kilometrage' 'puissance fiscale' and asking for the 'carte grise' none of which exist.When I phoned to explain the woman suggested that I got a French speaker to help me fill it in since I clearly was too ignorant of the language to understand these terms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 [quote user="NormanH"]When I phoned to explain the woman suggested that I got a French speaker to help me fill it in since I clearly was too ignorant of the language to understand these terms...[/quote]Please tell us that you came back to her with a witty and stinging reply; I can never think quickly enough in these situations and an appropriate retort only comes to mind after I have put down the phone.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Alas no [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 NH that is truly disgraceful. I suspect that your spoken french is probably better/nicer than mine, what with you actually understanding how french grammar works and I still don't....... and no one has ever said such a thing to me! Dared say such a thing to me!Still I may be softly spoken, I really am....... but maybe I can still come across as a dragon and they don't dare.Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I was under the impression that under EU law they are supposed to give you, on request, the name and address of their MD or what ever posh name he/she has these daze. On the odd occasion I find me in this situation I ask for the bosses name and address and I have actually written and got results. That's because the boss doesn't want to be bothered with the havoc his firm causes to the punters, so even before he gets to know his minions sort it.It has long been my moto 'start at the top and work down'. It doesn't always work but it's worth the try.I hope you are paying the licence for yer free tele Claire [kiss] Not that I would ever think that you wouldn't [blink] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Have you got a link to that law (in French)?I am not doubting you. It is more that there are a couple of organisations where that would be useful [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonzjob Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I can't for the life of me remember where/when I was told about it, but I have used it once and was grudgingly given the info. It was when we were having trouble with our Citroën C8 and I wanted to contact the boss in Paris. We were faced with a bill for about 2000€ plus for a cat converter that shouldn't have failed. We had all but the cost of the labour returned to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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