English

[idun]

On french news last night they were saying that there was a big problem in France as not enough people could speak and write english.

Now, my children went to school in France and the authorities wanted to get 'english' started in primaire just after mine left primary school. To be taught by teachers who couldn't speak english, so that was years ago. Also most children did english as their first foreign language in college and those that didn't like mine, who did german, then did english in 4eme.

So these young people, I'd say in their twenties,  that I saw on tv last night, working, needing to speak english were  struggling so much and I wondered why they were unable to speak english. After all the profs in college are so full of themselves and consider that they are the masters of all they convey, so why and how are their former pupils so lacking?

Strangely, 'just' being a fluent english speaker was not considered good enough by those at my old local 'inspection', needed all the exams passed etc, as long as the paper work was there it didn't matter if the person could actually speak english or not.

Is there really a good reason why so much time appears to have been put into english lessons and they haven't worked?

[Quillan]

[quote user="idun"]
Is there really a good reason why so much time appears to have been put into english lessons and they haven't worked?
[/quote]

Because it is compulsory in schools? Tell a child they have to do anything and the rebel.

[idun]

Yes, I understand that, BUT, they listen to a lot of english music, it isn't as if they are learning ancient greek, and I know some who did incidentally, were even taken to Greece, and left me wondering if speaking ancient greek in Greece would work as well as speaking latin in Italy?[Www]

English is all around kids. Surely some of their lessons would find some pertinence in real life and not just in lessons.

Incidentally, I do know that some french people end up speaking and writing wonderful english, we have some fantastic people on here that do just that.

[mint]

After looking for hours on leboncoin and choosing and then rejecting dozens of types of lights, I eventually chose a plafonnier and ses appliques assorties.  Had a plafonnier instead of a lustre or a suspendu as I didn't want OH to go in the dressing, pull of his jumper overhead and knock the lights down.

Had the appliques to go one either side of a large mirror that will be re-located from the dining room.  Anyway, I negotiated for these fabulous and unusual looking lights en bois et laiton (sorry for the franglais but it's just easier to write because the ad was in French and "wood and brass" doesn't give me the same mental picture).

He agreed to pay half the postage and then he went quiet all over the weekend.  So, I wrote a careful email, asking for his address to send the cheque and even offered to pay all of the postage if he found he'd made too generous an offer.  I checked all the grammar very carefully and I knew I hadn't got all my accents right because, to be honest, I haven't found all the accents yet on my new computer.

Feeling thoroughly ashamed, I dashed off a quick postcript, apologising for my orthographe and said I wasn't used to the keyboard.

Well, after 3 days of keeping quiet, he wrote back and said "madam, it's not a problem for me; you could have written in your usual language"!  So how's that for perfect English?  That did make me smile and, id, he's from the Rhone area.

[Quillan]

I guess it depends where you live in France. Down here the second language is either Spanish or Catalan with Occitan on it's last legs now. I guess that speaking either Spanish or English is an advantage, speaking both means there are very few countries you can't visit. Professionals seem to speak English and certainly the more North you go the better the English. I suspect that's because of the closer proximity to the UK as the further south you go towards Spain the better Spanish is spoken. I wonder if it is the same as you head towards Italy and other European countries.

[YCCMB]

If there's an afterlife, I'm coming back Swiss.

[woolybanana]

Many years ago it used to be the policy in France to teach the language in schools appropriate to the neighbouring country, but I think that has long gone.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="idun"]

Is there really a good reason why so much time appears to have been put into english lessons and they haven't worked?

[/quote]

Could it be that an increasing majority of Brits don't actually speak, err, English?

Must make things very tricky for those trying to teach English!

[Www]

[YCCMB]

The majority of Brits speak English, of course they do. They may not have mastered verbosity or logorrhoea, but as a people, they seem to understand one another and be understood. Oddly, the demands made upon non native English speakers learning English in the UK are more rigorous than those placed upon UK nationals in school. Thus, it's likely that the diversity of nationalities living in the UK will, in the long run, improve the overall level of English....

[Gluestick]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]The majority of Brits speak English, of course they do. [/quote]

I would suggest it depends where in the UK one lives, Betty...............

[NormanH]

A major reason is that the English lessons in French schools are not really aimed at understanding and speaking. They are linguistic exercises which are dull for the majority.

Here is an example

http://www.meilleurenclasse.com/programme-d-entrainement/6e/anglais/grammaire-autour-de-la-phrase/utiliser-des-marqueurs-de-temps/ent1

and while that is far from the worst I would comment that it is more common to say

"I'm going to get a job' for an intention than to say 'I will get a job' as in the exercise, but the French system habitually overuses the 'will' future.

Courses aimed a teaching adults to speak French have a much better pedagogy.

[Chancer]

According to them it is incorrect to say "I will get a job now", OK for the example its not what they are looking for but it can be used.

I will get my coat now [:$]

[Chancer]

According to them it is incorrect to say "I will get a job now", OK for the example its not what they are looking for but it can be used.

I will get my coat now [:$]

[mint]

Yesterday I spoke to someone's secretary on the phone.

It was not an easy conversation, at least not for me, and I had quite a complicated message to give her for her boss.  Near the end of the conversation, I checked back to make sure she had understood everything and also that she wasn't going to miss out bits of the message.

From the couple of questions she asked me, I was satisfied that she had everything right.  As I mentally breathed a sigh of relief, she said, madame, you have an accent magnifique.  At that I collapsed into such a fit of laughter that it took several seconds before we could exchange our goodbyes and bonnes journées.

I do think that, especially for spoken language, it's fine to make all sorts of mistakes as long as, in the end, the ESSENTIALS of the communication is understood by the recipient.

[Quillan]

My mayor has taken to putting signs up round the village in French, Dutch and English. The thing is and it really annoys me is that it is American English and there are no Americans living here (nor Canadians either). Try as I might to explain that the languages are different as is some of the spelling he won't have it. [:@]

[YCCMB]

Thing is, Quillan, many people, whether we ( collective noun for British English speakers...I personally don't mind) like it or not, American English is both acceptable and widely used. The use of American spelling does not, in general, inhibit understanding for anyone who understands English.

You'd be surprised at how widely American English is taught. AFAIK, it's completely acceptable to use either American or British English, as long as you don't mix the two in the same text.

[Quillan]

Although my command of the English language may have diminished somewhat over the years since my stroke I am extremely proud of my language. It is the most used second language in the world and is a legacy of our once great empire (still the first language in 60 countries ranking it third most used in the world after Spanish and Mandarin) and has been spoken by the working population of England for hundreds of years (5th century) with the 'modern' form that we speak today dating back to the 15th century. So I take offence to a bunch of illiterate, genocide practicing, warmongering, immigrants in another country defiling my language and then trying to tell the world that this is version of the English language is what we should all use in commerce, science and international discourse. I detest with a vengeance the 'Americanisation' of our wonderful language.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"] So I take offence to a bunch of illiterate, genocide practicing, warmongering, immigrants in another country defiling my language and then trying to tell the world that this is version of the English language is what we should all use in commerce, science and international discourse. I detest with a vengeance the 'Americanisation' of our wonderful language.[/quote]

And yet they have such a high opinion of you!

Its their language as well surely?

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"] So I take offence to a bunch of illiterate, genocide practicing, warmongering, immigrants in another country defiling my language and then trying to tell the world that this is version of the English language is what we should all use in commerce, science and international discourse. I detest with a vengeance the 'Americanisation' of our wonderful language.[/quote]

And yet they have such a high opinion of you!

Its their language as well surely?

And speaking of literacy, what does "that this is version of the English language is what we should all use" mean? [;-)]

Ooops, just read again about your stroke, sorry Quillan [:$]

[Quillan]

No it's not their language 'as well' they have their own version which is a bastardised version of ours. This is why you have and American and UK spell checker in just about every bit of software that requires a spell checker. The same applies to grammar checkers not that they ever seem that good. Not to mention that they have used English words to mean something different, rubber immediately comes to mind. Excluding slang here is a list of just terms.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/british-and-american-terms

Here is another list although I know your not a fan of Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_American_and_British_English:_A%E2%80%93L#L

 

[idun]

I thought that  americans sometimes use 'olde' english, they haven't played with our language, they are just using it as it used to be used.

Also, spelling has changed so much over the centuries, who is to say that what we have now is 'right', doesn't feel like it to me, I have with mild dyslexia, spelling is hard,  The world didn't start with us and won't  end with us....... perhaps!

[YCCMB]

Quillan. English, wherever it is spoken, is modified. Australian English isn't the same, either. Try asking for Durex in an Australian chemist, to remain in keeping with your theme.

I am sure that the Academie Francaise must be biting its tongue every time Canada gets included in the annual. " journee de la francophonie" but that's what happens with living languages. In fact, if you research the etymology of many words, notably those where American English has dropped the "u" (e.g. "Color") you will find that it is the American English spelling which is older and the British who have modified the original spelling.

I am a language purist in many ways, and a grammar pedant. It is, however, far more painful to me to see English misused by people through bad spelling and punctuation than to see it evolve and renew through natural evolution.

As for your list of reasons why the USA should not be messing with our language, please look at some of the other countries where English is an official language and tell us that the same problems don't apply. In fact, look at Britain. We are hardly squeaky clean....,.

[idun]

Sorry about my spelling and grammar Betty, I was always good at sums and then then maths, just not english[:$]

I have said before, but I cannot dissect the language, it feels alien to me to try and pull it apart as I have not got a clue as to what I am doing and I am lost and can make no sense of it. What I never understand is 'how and why' it makes sense to others.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]Although my command of the English language may have diminished somewhat over the years since my stroke I am extremely proud of my language. It is the most used second language in the world and is a legacy of our once great empire (still the first language in 60 countries ranking it third most used in the world after Spanish and Mandarin) and has been spoken by the working population of England for hundreds of years (5th century) with the 'modern' form that we speak today dating back to the 15th century. So I take offence to a bunch of illiterate, genocide practicing, warmongering, immigrants in another country defiling my language and then trying to tell the world that this is version of the English language is what we should all use in commerce, science and international discourse. I detest with a vengeance the 'Americanisation' of our wonderful language.[/quote]

Firstly, Q, I am so very sorry to learn you suffered a stroke and trust you have recovered well and are continuing to enjoy your life.

I agree absolutely with your ethos: whenever one mounts this argument, it results in a flood of disagreement and the classic ploy, that languages "evolve". Well,  they can, marginally and over considerable time, clearly they do: that said, however, such evolution is only reliant on and connected to sensible changes.

Sadly, today, the "English" commonly used in England, in particular the South, is an hybrid mongrel admixture of American slang, media-inspired and incomprehensible jargon, Australian Ocka "strine": Afro-Caribbean, street rap, gangstah drug, Mockney (i.e. ersatz Cockney) and etc.

All language developed primarily for the core purpose of clear communication between homo sapiens needing to exchange meanings, instructions, requests and emotion: yet today one is hard pushed to comprehend what on earth people are prattling about!

Formal language demands rules: it is called grammar. Even in such once respected papers as the Daily Telegraph, young so-called "journalists" pen such garbage as "I am bored of the weather!".

[:-))]

Another everyday expression adopted increasingly by the young, to the ever-present creeping malaise of media and football heroes, which grate upon my sensitive soul, is a quasi-illterate numbskull being asked by a TV pundit, say "How did you play?"

"I played good!"

Funny: and there's me thinking the man was supposed to to be playing football!

American English: problem here is that America is a nation which mixed many ethnic peoples: there language and words became incorporated into mainstream American language: Italian, Yiddish, Spanish, etc.

Older Bostonians speak a much purer form of English, I have found over the years and adhere to old English customs and formalities, now, almost as a ghetto of originality.

British Colonies: here one must remember, I believe, whilst English may well have been a mother tongue, local languages have been, understandably, absorbed in everyday speech and expression. In South Africa, as one example, English speakers absorbed Afrikaans. Many settlers had to learn Afrikaans in order to communicate. Settlers in say Rhodesia, as it was, tended to speak Sindebele (Matabale) and admixed both in everyday language.

Elsewhere in Africa, the lingua franca was Swahili, a pidgin language, developed by Arab slave traders and general traders: this was used by white settlers in order to communicate between themselves and hugely disparate tribes. Many of the terms are commonly used still today.

Which is all most fascinating: however, allowing the prostitution and adulteration of English English by American multinational exploiters, media and others is, to myself, reprehensible and unforgivable.

[YCCMB]

For ther is so gret diversite

In Englissh and in writyng of oure tonge

So pray I God that non myswrite the

Ne the mysmetre for defaute of tongue:

And red wherso thow be, or elles songe,

That thow be understonde, God I biseche.

?