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The Elections


idun

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I wasn't surprised, but disappointed that the FN did so well. And you know that the left has done badly when Delors 'girl' is asking if people would vote 'right' rather than FN next Sunday.

And did they let you vote Quillan, were you on the list?

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[quote user="idun"]I wasn't surprised, but disappointed that the FN did so well. And you know that the left has done badly when Delors 'girl' is asking if people would vote 'right' rather than FN next Sunday.

And did they let you vote Quillan, were you on the list?


[/quote]

No I didn't bother to go as my village voted 98% FN plus you lot put me off. Quillan, as in the town, however voted for Sarkozy first (can't remember the party names), Hollande second and SHE came third. Strange how much of a difference 4km makes. I gather SHE is not a happy bunny today. Yes she may have done well but there are no prizes for coming second.

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I raised quite a giggle on one of our village walking group outings, every Tuesday, when I referred to the l'UMP as 'lump', because of course the French always use the initials init!! Then Q you have the PS Partie Socialiste and NF, no explication needed, or given.. NF?? Would that be better rebadged as NFI [blink]

It will be quite interesting this time next week, or in Mme la Penns' case disappointing, I hope??

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Don't ignore the fact, before this election, Sarkozy and UMP had to ally with the Centre-Right UDI........

Also don't forget the advances Marine Le Pen has made.

Also remember her father Jean Marie Le Pen, gave Chirac a good run for his money in the 2002 first round of the presidential elections, forcing Lionel Jospin to abandon his presidential aspirations, and forcing the socialists to ally with Chirac to block Le Pen's further advances.

France can not afford much more socialist idiocy from Hollande and his gang of fools.

As the ECB, Bundesbank, OECD, etc warn..........

See here

It aint all over till the fat lady sings........

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[quote user="Gluestick"]
Also remember her father Jean Marie Le Pen, gave Chirac a good run for his money in the 2002 first round of the presidential elections, forcing Lionel Jospin to abandon his presidential aspirations, and forcing the socialists to ally with Chirac to block Le Pen's further advances.

It aint all over till the fat lady sings........
[/quote]

Quite right about her father in 2002 but you need to remember what happened and why. Chirac had not carried out the policies he promised hence a massive protest vote for any party that was extreme to his i.e. either communist or extreme right wing and the French chose the latter. Come the second vote FN got beaten out of sight with Chirac getting 82% of the vote which is why her father 'retired' as FN leader.

His daughter has tried to change, with pretty good outward effect, the racists in the party but like all politicians she got caught when just like John Prescot she forgot her microphone was on when she was off camera talking to her father. Basically what she says in public and what she really thinks are two different things when it comes to coloured immigrants in France and she is not too fond of some other ethnic groups either i.e. Notice she was not at the Charlie march. I would imagine she is probably now worried that she will suffer the same humiliation as her father although I don't think it will be so bad for her. If you take my village as I said some 98% of those that turned out voted FN at the weekend, just like they did in the Presidential elections but come the day of the second round they all voted for Hollande, a logic I have never quite worked out but thats what they do.

I do agree with "Super Mario " and Jens Weidmann however about France and personally I, like many others, put the blame at Hollandes door for Frances poor performance. This is why given the choice at the next presidential elections the French, even though they don't really like either, will choose M. Bling Bling. The less of the two evils you might say and as the article you linked to shows things were much better under him.

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Let's not ignore Marine Le Pen gained 25% of the total vote, this week: which is surely indicative of something?

Chirac failed to carry out that which he promised: indeed.

However M. le President Bling Bling promised a raft of changes and improvements "Within 100 days!". And carried out precisely none!

When he was Interior Minister, he stated he was going to send in the water cannon and "Wash the scum into the sewers!" Remember?

His associates are also not lily white!

See Here

Generally I feel, the root and branch French people have had enough of self-serving politicians, the overbearing dominance of the EU and various social problems.

For Sarkozy or indeed anyone else, to reform France means reforming the Social Compact: well, various politicians have tried in the past and failed, dismally: Alain Juppé' Dominique de Villepin; Lionel Jospin et al.

The hidden danger of Sarkozy is he is in love with the market solution, like Thatcher and Reagan. He has close ties to global capital and the uber wealthy (Lillian Bettencourt e.g.). Sarkozy would dearly love to sell off EDF and then France would suffer a sort of Enron. It would be utter madness, since a majority of the capital costs of power generation has already been paid.

The venal capital markets would of course love it! Exploit the cost, gain the infrastructure for peanuts and screw up the economy!

France urgently needs another De Gaulle; to take the damned politicians by their scrawny necks, give 'em a damned good shake and sort out the core socio-economic problems.

At least Le Pen has and will shake up the nation state and force the mainstream political parties to do things, instead of waffling.

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Q said: Basically what she says in public and what she really thinks are two different things

Is there a politician on the planet who does not do this. I do wish that when they speak and are not being honest, that their mouths could morph into the form of an anal sphincter. It would be fair on we the public to see and know that they are talking out of their backsides.

I remember well the Chirac/Le Pen second tour in the Presidental elections and a couple of shame faced friends who had made their protest vote for the FN in the first tour, and had been shocked how many others had done the same,

they did not in the second.

I must admit I saw Bernadette Chirac on tv last night and she was fiesty, pity she had not been in politics years ago instead of Black Jack.

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[quote user="idun"] and a couple of shame faced friends who had made their protest vote for the FN in the first tour, and had been shocked how many others had done the same,

[/quote]

Why "Shame Faced", Idun?

Their action galvanised Chirac into affirmative action and a hurried alliance. and Sarkozy has been forced into the same action with his hasty alliance.

As with UKIP in UK, the FN stand no chance of forming a government: however what they are doing is shake extant politicians out of their complacency!

How else might people vote? Green? (Don't make me larf!); Monster Raving Loony Party? How else might people make their vote count?

You make it sound as if anyone who votes for FN or UKIP is some sort of leper and hope it isn't catching!

Otherwise more and more voters simply will not bother and both France and UKIP will finish up, respectively, as Marxist (Worked for Portugal! Not! And who was one of the Marxists? Barroso!); and Fascist, since out-of-control corporatism will otherwise rule the roost; as it already increasingly is.

Err. just like Italy, Spain and Germany in the 1930s............

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Gers and Haute Garonne managed to stay socialist, whereas 3 neighbouring depts went to FN. (47,81 and 82).

Difficult to understand why the difference. Only 2 votes for FN in our commune.

As you noticed Q., 4km can make a big difference.

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Ah the EU, the same old whipping boy as some in the UK like to use. I often wondered what will happen if France and the UK left the EU, who could they then blame for their problems and god knows there will be a lot more of them than there are now.

Frances big problem is France, there is nobody else to blame. France, well Hollande, decided to spend it's way out of trouble and the UK went down the austerity route now compare France to the UK and see who is the better off.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Ah the EU, the same old whipping boy as some in the UK like to use. I often wondered what will happen if France and the UK left the EU, who could they then blame for their problems and god knows there will be a lot more of them than there are now.

Frances big problem is France, there is nobody else to blame. France, well Hollande, decided to spend it's way out of trouble and the UK went down the austerity route now compare France to the UK and see who is the better off.

[/quote]

Well, just for once, Q, let's put the boot on the other foot.

1.    What are the core benefits you maintain for the EU and EU membership, please?

2.    What are the core benefits of the Euro mechanism?

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There are loads of benefits from the small to the large. Here are a handful just to get you started. Compulsory declaration of energy efficiency of domestic dwellings. Compulsory fitting of Tachometers in commercial vehicles operated inside the the EU with limits on number of hours a drive can drive and his/her rest periods. Over 45% now as of Q4 of 2014 of UK exports go to the EU which creates employment. Biggest core mechanism is EU countries not charging import duty on goods from other EU countries making for a level playing field, something the UK would lose if it left. The EU is responsible for around 3.5m jobs both directly and indirectly in the UK. Sale of British Beef and other agricultural produce in Europe. Foreign investment by non EU countries in the UK because we are in the EU. One of the most efficient car manufacturing countries in the world with 80% going to the EU. As part of the EU we benefit from class actions against American companies such as Microsoft (removal of Internet Explorer from operating system. The EU is the world's largest single market and as such carries a lot of power when negotiating deals. Accounts for about 2.2% of UK GDP worth around €223bn. Gives us access to over 500bn people to sell things to without the incomberance of duty and tariffs. Sure we can leave but if we want to keep these benefits we need to join the EEA and pay like Norway and Switzerland so we won't be any better off as some claim. We will also lose our place on the Council of Ministers. The claim that we are members of the WTO does not work, the US is a member but you pay duty on goods imported from the US and thats what would make our goods non competitive unless we reduced wages or employed cheap foreign labour so our prices once duty is added continues to make them competitive. The list just goes on and on.

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Ah, by the same token I could say that there could often be benefits when there are dictatorships, the little moustached fella from Austria, a shining example of getting a country running, and look at Mussolini, trains always ran on time and no strikes, something the SNCF could learn from.

And it isn't as if we didn't trade with other european countries when we weren't fighting them in the past.

Back to the elections, shame faced, yes, because basically like me, my friends actually do believe that the FN is bad, however, it has become a bit of a tradition that they get the protest vote, and really were shocked that Le Pen got to the second round. Did Chirac galvansie anything, NOT that I remember and I had been in France a long time then. In fact the only time I seem to remember him as PM trying to do some stuff, that did need doing, the riots and violence were so bad that he gave up, hence he wasn't going to have a revolution on his hands if he had done much as President.

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Wasn't that why he lost the next time because he promised everyone he really would do stuff but yet again he did nothing? Actually it does sound rather familiar really, politicians promising and not delivering and not just in France. As my dad always said, you can tell when they lie, their lips move. [;-)]
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[quote user="NickP"]Tachometres in commercial vehicles were obligatory in the UK long before the EU. So that benefit wouldn't be lost.[/quote]

I was getting to that later, Nick! Indeed, I had the pleasure of working with the Professor who lead the team at Imperial who designed the Tachograph.

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[quote user="NickP"]Tachometres in commercial vehicles were obligatory in the UK long before the EU. So that benefit wouldn't be lost.[/quote]

Your sort of right but your sort of wrong. Barbra Castle in 1968 apended the use of tachographs to the Transport Bill of the same year but it falled to get implimented. The EU or the EEC as it was then bought in compulsory instalation of tachographs in 1970 and as we were a member the UK waited till 1979 for That the draft Passenger and Goods Vehicles (Recording Equipment) Regulations 1979, which were laid before the House on 29 November 1979 to be approved. This was a result of the EU courts telling the UK in 1978 that they must install them in most goods vehicles over 3½ tons gross and in passenger vehicles not on regular services. It was not till 2006 that it was made compulsory for all vehicles over 3½ tons gross and all passenger vehicles.

You can look it up on the UK Gov website and in Hansard, it's all there. Indeed if it were not for the EU forcing the UK to comply we would have had a lot more accidents on UK roads than we do now. Only the other month a passenger in a car was killed on the M25 when a lorry driver fell asleep at the wheel of an artic having driven for 15 hours from Germany non stop (the exception being fuel) and driving into the back of a line of stationary cars. Turns out he had 'fixed' his tacho so as not to register the hours he had driven. The majority of lorry drivers and their companies do not cheat and this incident on the M25 is one of only a few over the years but it does prove tachos save lives.

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No matter what happens initially things change as nothing is written in stone. So as long as I draw breath I will not believe that good rules and laws would not have come in, even if we hadn't joined the EU.

And good sense, well, just look at fire alarms. We put them in our french house years ago. We brought them back from England for our french neighbours and friends years ago. They came in in France............ eventually!

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Well if you say so it must be right, but it now appears that in the sixties and early seventies I was wasting my time and ink filling them in. There are still hgv's that don't have to fill them in, they are "plant vehicles"
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[quote user="NickP"]Well if you say so it must be right, but it now appears that in the sixties and early seventies I was wasting my time and ink filling them in. There are still hgv's that don't have to fill them in, they are "plant vehicles"[/quote]

Well you can't argue with Hansard, the government and the law. Of course that does not mean they were not used by some companies even thought they were not required by law at that time. Could have been some form of union requirment to ensure workers were not over worked and got their overtime. If it wasn't anything like that then yes, you were wasting your time. Alternativly perhaps somebody got you to do it as a joke then forgot to tell you. Just so you know for the future here is the Hansard bit.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1979/dec/19/tachographs

I ams sure you can find the rest yourself.

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[quote user="idun"]No matter what happens initially things change as nothing is written in stone. So as long as I draw breath I will not believe that good rules and laws would not have come in, even if we hadn't joined the EU.

And good sense, well, just look at fire alarms. We put them in our french house years ago. We brought them back from England for our french neighbours and friends years ago. They came in in France............ eventually!

[/quote]

The problem is we are in to deep now. As a pro European it is very difficult to have to admit that it is not perfect but then what system is.

The French believe in their constitution yet when one looks around are all French actually equal, no they are not. Great idea but it does not work. It's a bit like communism, fantastic idea but the reality is that it does not work.

The thing is the likes of FN and Ukip have managed to get a lot of MEP seats mainly in truth down to the fact that many don't bother to vote in the European elections and don't take them seriously. The same people who don't vote are also the EU greatest critics. What’s the old saying, if you can't beat it join it then change it and these groups have lost out on a golden opportunity. Just look at how these groups behave in the EU parliament, well actually they don't behave because they only turn up to get their expenses. Look at the way they vote, actually they don't vote and should one of them by error find themselves there when there is a vote they vote no because it is the EU and they don't like the EU. Have a look at http://www.votewatch.eu/ and see for yourself how these groups are behaving.

Here is another area in which the EU is helpful, child pornography and images on the Internet. Rather than explain I will give you a link to the resolution passed on the 11March 2015 which is to force the EU countries that have not joined the fight against this terrible and horrific crime to act.

http://www.votewatch.eu/blog/eu-countries-failed-to-fully-implement-eu-directive-from-2011-aimed-at-tackling-sexual-child-abuse/

Out of the 25 Ukip MEP's 3 didn't turn up, 5 didn’t vote and 15 voted against, not one voted in favour. Obviously they don't have our children’s interests at heart so one can only assume they voted against out of self interest. If you look in the text of the above link you will find a link to how people voted.

This is the legislation they were actually voting against. Read it and tell me why anyone would want to vote against it.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32011L0093

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In too deep eh! My belief is that when you end up in deep caca, then best is to drag yourself out of it. Your belief in the EU, Q, is quite remarkable.

 I simply don't believe most of what I read and watch. Today I did, couldn't have been clearer, a plane few into a mountain, no spin just a horribly sad fact.

Nothing is set in stone, nothing will remain as it is now. My principle worries for the future are Putin and the daesh. I have other worries, and the EU has annoyed me completely for many years. Why has there been nothing that would make me feel like 'it' had a raison d'etre. And the jobs, well, isn't this like french fonctionnaires, everyone says there are too many........ so what and where are all these jobs???? I don't doubt that they are created, in fact that is what I believe that they are. Why are they needed, we didn't need them all 50 years ago.

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The EU as a trading block to compete globally and with no borders to allow free movement was a good idea until it allowed any nation to join. Now it's like an uncontrollable mass that spews out ridiculous laws and decrees made up by overpaid muppets who couldn't get a job doing anything else.

At least the UK has the option to pull out, France is well and truly welded to the mass. It's no coincidence that the UK has recovered from the 2008 crisis better than most by being out of the Eurozone. Germany has also done well but they are now suffering from internal unrest as Mr and Mrs Frankfurter realise that they'll be the ones picking up the tab if countries like Greece go bankrupt.

I'm pro EU but unless it slims down and failing nations such as Greece are dropped it will continue to stagnate.
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[quote user="idun"]My principle worries for the future are Putin and the daesh. I have other worries, and the EU has annoyed me completely for many years. Why has there been nothing that would make me feel like 'it' had a raison d'etre. And the jobs, well, isn't this like french fonctionnaires, everyone says there are too many........ so what and where are all these jobs???? I don't doubt that they are created, in fact that is what I believe that they are. Why are they needed, we didn't need them all 50 years ago.
[/quote]

I think your right to worry about Putin and to be honest without the EU he would prpbaby be in the whole of the Ukraine long since and a few other countries to boot. One of the principle objects of the EU was and is to stop European war by generating trade, common human rights and a united bond between us all.

Countries that should not have joined, well Greece is the classic example. I don't have blind faith in the EU, I see its benifits and I beleive it is the way forward. However as I said it is not perfect but then neither, for example, is the UK or France. Greece cheated to join the EU just as France is cheating with it's current budget, Greece only got in on the third attempt and then only because, nowing they had cheated, the EU said OK and turned a blind eye. Greece has been cheating the EU tax payer since it joined because of it's inherent corruption. In short, on Greece, the EU got it wrong and now it's time to pay us all back the Greeks don't want to.

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