Taking french nationality

[idun]

What can I say, in the 27 years I lived in France, I never ever ever felt 'french'. We were the only brits in the village and I have a small group of french friends, as in true friends. I use the word friend for people I know well too because we are 'friendly, and I know an awful lot of french people well and am very happy in their company.

I joined in most things going, even with some local politics. As Patf pointed out, it is confusing, especially in local elections, when 'just' groups of miscellaneous people can put forward a 'team' for election, so with locals at small town / village level one has to know, should know these people and their leanings in order to decide how to vote.

And now living in the UK,  I realise that by osmosis or some such thing, french views are an integral part of 'me', even though when in France it is blatantly obvious that I am not french. And it's not just me that changed, the UK has changed too, and so it should have done, everywhere, that includes

LBF has and certainly did whilst I was there and has since I left,

I realise that some posters have taken french nationality. But for all I know quite a few british people, all of whom lived quite some distance from me and am still friends with them, none have taken french nationality, and they have now lived in France far longer than we did and still are not taking french nationality. Never heard them mention it, full working lives in France now and subsequent french pensions.

Will it matter if the UK leaves the EU?? Doubt it, people were moving around europe well before all this infliction some want, of a United States of Europe. And most people I talk to in the UK believe that they could 'just' move anywhere in the EU and have exactly the same entitlements as they have in the UK, so have bought the idea of the US of E?????? have they????? or is it just Little Britain they want??????

What one had to do in the old days when shifting countries, was prove a sort of self sufficiency, work and if in a job in France, one was in the system.

All this talk of  being in France for five years and proving it, as it is imperative to become french. Well I could have done it, could have taken french nationality easily........... but does not alter the fact that I would never have been french, because I just am not and frankly I try and stay true to 'me'. And even if the UK leaves the EU, we could end up moving back to France and I still will not take french nationality, because, just because I understand the french, I am NOT french.

[lindal1000]

Well in your case the situation is quite clear, but for others it might not be the same. My partner has now lived more years in France than the UK, he speaks French fluently, he identifies himself culturally with France far more than he does with the country of his birth. He hates going back there even to visit.. (I usually go on my own) and for him I can see that taking French citizenship would be a very natural step. I'm more in the middle ..I can no longer identify myself with the UK in the same way as I did even 5 years ago, but I don't yet identity with France as he does. It's not about whether you are or are not French but whether that is what you want to become.

I think the situation is very different if you have children born here, and for the discussion in the other thread, if people are moving here in their 20s then that is highly likely. If their kids are educated in France then from what I've seen, they nearly all opt for French nationality when they are older. Opting for French nationality does not mean that you have to give up your British nationality, as the concept of dual citizenship is accepted by both countries. I guess people may be comfortable feeling that they have the same rights and entitlements as their kids. Without nationality you cannot vote, there are certain jobs that you cannot do and you cannot fulfil many political roles.

[alittlebitfrench]

If you were born here or arrived in France very young then I don't see the problem of getting French nationality. It is probably worth it if you plan to stay.

However, above the age of twenty I don't see the point. It won't bring anything to the table. With employment, you are either 'cadre' or not. Nationality does not come into it. Simple.

I don't recognise the UK anymore and I am completely lost when I go back but I am still 'British'. In fact I more and more enjoying going back because it so different to what I remember. The kids are half British and they are very proud to be so and love going to the UK. The fact they have French nationality does not change anything. In fact they have a very British sense of humour.

Only living here for 5 years and thinking you are French is silly. It takes years to understand France and when you do you realise that people are exactly the same as they are in the UK. I can't identify the 'French' in people anymore. Certainly my generation.

Most British live in rural French make believe world. That is not France. I say it again, if you want to know what France is all about go and move to a large city. Dordogne, Brittany, Corrèze or other such places is not representative. 20% of the French population live and work in Ile de France. Go and live and work in the suburbs of Paris of wherever and then decide if you want French nationality.

Just my two pence worth.

[EuroTrash]

To state the obvious but I think we all realise that a new passport doesn't make you a different person. If you were born British you will never become native French, you will be a Brit who took French nationality. But, you will be able to vote in French elections. I've been dismissing this as a quite minor advantage but since the FN illustration in the other thread, I'm thinking harder about it. I do recall too that at the last elections I was anti-Hollande, partly but not wholly because he had announced a radical review of AE if he got in, and it was quite frustrating to not have a vote - wouldn't have changed anything but at least I'd have had the satisfaction of knowing I'd done what I could.

I agree that many the younger generation French and Brits seem less different than the older generation. Several of my friends here have children who've gone to work in London and love it and have no time for France any more.

You say Paris is France and Brittany is not, I find that a slightly odd thing to say because agriculture is a huge part of the French economy (over a million jobs, over €60m production) and how many farmers are there in Paris? But I suppose we all have our own set of blinkers and only see our own 'France'.

[alittlebitfrench]

The point I am trying to make is that most people in France live and work in cities. Most want to retire in a city. Now, I live and have lived in a few French cities and stayed with relatives in many others. I would say that people are generally the same across France. Ok there might be a north south divide but peoples attitudes and motivation in life is very much the same as those in the Uk. University - Job - get married - get a mortgage - have children - retire. I don't see a big difference in culture between France and the UK especially those below the age of forty. So having one nationality or the other does not really change anything.

Rural France on the other hand is very different. Rural Brittany and rural Alsace may as well be two different countries. Of course it is France but what I am saying it is not representative. You visit these places not live there.

A lot of expats who move to such areas have a lot of difficulty adjusting to the way of life and blame France with it. What they don't understand is that is not representative.

[EuroTrash]

But you are still discounting the millions of farmers and farm workers who have a different but equally valid outlook but who are still French and who prop up the economy. It is a minority way of life but to say it doesn't count, just because it has never been part of your own life, is wrong.

As regards urban expats who move to rural areas, yes I largely agree. As an urban expat you can move to a town and fit in - get a job, face the same issues as your neighbours, get involved. Most expats who move to rural areas remain outsiders because there's no way in, just as a Parisien who moved there would have no way in either. However, if you'd lived in a farming community all your life in the UK, you'd probably fit in very well in rural Brittany, far better than you would if you moved to a city in the UK. Both countries have the urban/rural divide. You see it less in the UK because there are fewer truly rural areas left.

The big difference in culture I see between the UK and France is the 'go it alone' entrepreneurial culture. A lot of young people in the UK see 'success' as starting their own business and turning it into a big moneyspinner. This hardly exists in France (or if it does, they go to the UK to do it). In France, success is getting to the top in the rat race. In the UK that is viewed by many people with a mixture of envy and admiration but also contempt - there's a British tradition of respecting the self-made man who's taken risks (think Alan Sugar) far more than the 'wimp' who's taken the 'cushy' route. In France I don't hear the same snide comments. Being self-employed in the UK is aspirational, people envy you the freedom and the kudos. Here there is no kudos, when I tell people I'm a travailleur indépendant I get sympathetic looks, nobody who has a job would want to swap places. So I do think there is still a difference. But being eroded.

[alittlebitfrench]

I am not discounting farmers. We lived for 6 years in the 'Beauce' and lets be clear the farmers ran the show including the Mairie. I could write a book on that subject. Small towns small minds and all that. But in terms of the 'agriculture industry' it is mostly run from cities.

I think expats don't appreciate how difficult it is to fit into a rural farming community in France. We knew a French family who moved from rural Loire to rural provence. They were never excepted into the village and so they moved back. Like you say Parisiens are frowned upon even when they grew up in the village that they are visiting. Parisiens will frown upon other Parisiens depending on what part of Paris you come from. Then you have a very popular French singer who apparently buys up all the property in his village to ensure he does not live with the riff raff.

I personally can't be dealing with all the politics of rural France and I certainly have (like my OH who is French) nothing in common with such people. Which half the point I was making.

But it a generational thing and it is changing as people pass away. That includes the attitude towards entrepreneurship as you touched upon. Loads of young people are starting businesses in this that and the other where I live. It is not frowned upon. It just the system makes it hard.

[EuroTrash]

"Then you have a very popular French singer who apparently buys up all the property in his village to ensure he does not live with the riff raff. "

LOL you gotta love it. Who was it that did that?

[alittlebitfrench]

Allegedly it is Partick Bruel.

A cousin of my OH lives in a nearby village in Provence. I don't know how true it is but it would not surprise me.

[NickP]

What a wonderful word allegedly is? It reminds me of that old song, "Maybe I'm right and Maybe I'm wrong"

[Chancer]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] I think expats don't appreciate how difficult it is to fit into a rural farming community in France.

We knew a French family who moved from rural Loire to rural provence. They were never excepted into the village and so they moved back. Like you say Parisiens are frowned upon even when they grew up in the village that they are visiting.

I personally can't be dealing with all the politics of rural France and I certainly have (like my OH who is French) nothing in common with such people.

[/quote]

I could not agree more

 

Its not just rural France in the agriculture way of life, where I live its an industrial area since the industrial revolution but of course the workers came from the paysans and continue to do so, give me a paysan or an agruculteur any day of the week over the mindset of the syndicalistes and worse still their spouses.

 

The only people that I get on with and more importantly "get me" that is to say open their eyes a little bit are those that have come here to work from more enlightened city areas and they absolutely hate it here and cannot wait to get away, they never put down roots, only last week I was dusputised by some concerned people to phone a French guy coming to start work in a very important job and head of a division to talk it through with him, did he really know what he was letting himself in for, if he went ahead with his pland to sell up in Bourgogne and move his family here he may risk having to choose between his wife and family and his career in a years time like many before him had, it really made me mal au cœur to do so but at least I have made a new friend albeit I hope temporarily.

 

Another smashing couple  run a walking group, they left the area to progress their careers in Paris and overseas but returned to the village of their birth in retirement, they are treated as complete pariahs and you see people doing that horrible finger rubbing geste behind their back or when describing them just as I know they now to do to me, at first I was the povcon who bought the wreck and dressed like a SDF, as soon as I redid the facade which cost nothing but my labour and €100 during the time they were all eating and drinking to excess during July and August their attitudes changed and they did so again when I started earning a good living from the place.

 

One exception to the above mentality is a neighbour who has only changed in the last few years since his daughter escaped and he goes South to visit her, before he had told me that he had never been on a train boat or plane [:-))] to be fair he was always a decent soul within but his view of life was no different to those he worked with in the aircraft factory, he recently said something to me which was very telling, he said "to give you an idea of how much the mentality around here now disgusts me, in what measure I no longer feel Picard, Chancer I actually am pleased for the success that you are enjoying, you have worked hard for years and lived on nothing, you deserve it" [:(]

 

I have bought a DVD of the film idiocracy but with a French soundtrack, I have shared it with a few select people when they have been in their darkets despair, their reaction was exactly as mine was when I first saw it "OMG That is exactly what I am living through!"  but it helped to be able to laugh at their situation

[idun]

LOL I moved to France in my twenties and had my kids there.

I was wondering when I posted this, what my wonderful french friends would have said, if I had told them I taking french nationality. There certainly would have been a grand fete, but, they know all too well our differences, so I really do not know.

I am trying to think of other than one woman I know of, who took french nationality after arriving in her twenties and that is it. Some people had young kids when they arrived in  France, and some like us, had our kids there. No one has and I know a lot of people.

As I said, lots of french thinking has rubbed off on me one way or another, and that is blatantly obivous when with friends in the UK. But honestly, the UK has changed, and it should have done, because France changed whilst I was there. If one 'leaves' and doesn' t believe where they left isn't going to change, well, that is 'odd' at best. Not only do places change, but we do too, but shouldn't we all be aware that as we age, we do.

[Chancer]

After about 5 years I felt much the same as Lindal, I felt like I wanted to take French nationality but later on un projet as everyone seems to call something they wont get around to doing, I had no better reason than following my instinct, my gut feeling told me that one day, in circumstances that I dont even try to speculate it may be really to my advantage to have dual nationality to be able to choose one over the other, I try to keep my options open in all things, never say never and it has served me well to date.

 

However at 10 years now I really dont want to become nationalised, in fact i probably feel quite anti and also I hope and plan to be away from France within a couple of years or at the very least from this area (never say never) some of the far flung countries that I am drawn to are either French speaking or partially French speaking so dual nationality may well still be an advantage.

 

As I cannot see any disadvantage in having both English and French nationality why would you not want to do so apart from the hassle, paperwork and hoop jumping?

 

[NormanH]

I am about as far into the French system as it is possible to get without taking nationality.

I have a French pension and my health cover is paid for by France for example. I have a 'carte de séjour' since 1995 which I use as a 'pièce d'identité'

I am very aware of French history and politics. I have even stood for

local elections on a 'list' in a medium-sized town, not at all the same

thing as being elected in a small village.

I also am extremely grateful to the medical care I have received.

Yet I have not taken French nationality.

At first it was because off the apalling attitude of the local sous -préfecture when I went through the agonising process of getting my first carte. I had no desire to go through the interminable waits and cavalier treatment again.

I let things slide for years and now I no longer have a burning need to do it. I will if the UK leaves Europe, though it won't make much practical difference to me.

At the same time I find that the better I understand  France the more I see differences I will neverbridge. But most of the 'Place in the Sun/Ryanair' generation of half-hearted migrants don't even begin to know enough about the place to appreciate that

 

[alittlebitfrench]

Norman wrote:

"At first it was because off the apalling attitude of the local sous -préfecture when I went through the agonising process of getting my first carte".

It was the same for me in Paris when I got my carte de séjour. The attitude of the people working there was really terrible. That was my first taste of proper France.

But how come you still have yours ? They only last ten years. When I went to renew mine (this time in Orleans) they told me to go away.

[NormanH]

They do tell you that because they don't want to bother to issue them.

We have the right however as I showed in a link on the other thread.

On the the other hand even 'périmée' they are usually accepted, even preferred to a UK passport since they have an address on them unlike the Passport.

[Judith]

NormanH,

Nice to know that I am not the only one who has found our local sous-préfecture to be a pain the proverbial - I avoid going if at all possible and only ever go if needs must.  Horrible place and horrible attitudes.  CPAM is much the same.  It is this sort of behaviour which turns me against the French, who, I will admit are a mixed bunch around here, but on the whole quite OK, most of the time.

[YCCMB]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. It has a certain resonance for me, as I'm married to someone who thought for the first 22 years of his life that he was one nationality, and so did his family. They all woke up one morning to discover he wasn't.

So he had then to jump through hoops to become the nationality he thought he'd been since birth. For him, once was most definitely enough.

In fact, a similar thing befell some Dutch friends of mine in France, who have lived there for well over 30 years, and who awoke one morning to find the gendarmes at their door looking for their son, who had failed to turn up for his trois jours before military service. Their sone told them emphatically that he was Dutch, and the flics told him categorically that he wasn't.

Just be grateful you have a passport and a nationality to belong to. It's not always that clear cut!

[lindal1000]

It's an odd concept really..nationality. Thinking about it I'm not really sure what being British is. Socialised into a set of behaviours and attitudes perhaps..but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't agree on what those behaviours and attitudes are. When I lived in Canada most people were no more than second generation Canadians, so the idea of becoming Canadian was no more unusual than getting a bank account or buying a house.

I've always been of the belief that you can't have too many passports so wouldn't have any qualms about applying for citizenship here or anywhere else.

ALBOF, do your kids have French Nationality or are they dual Nationality?

I'm off to UK next week. I'll let you all know how British I feel when I get back.

[idun]

Betty, your dutch friends, was their son born in France?? And if so, did he at 18'ish chose his nationality, ie remain just dutch or say he would accept french nationality??

As IF a child is born in France and does nothing about it by the time they are 18 years old, then they are french d'office, That is IF they have lived for five years between the age of 11 and 16 in France.

No matter what, they have to prove that they have the right to be french, (so not that simple, even when they are french) or if they don't want to be french, have to prove that they have the right to be french and that they are entitled to another nationality.

Been there done that. How on earth did I manage without a WWW as the first info I got was in 1992, still have the handwritten details from my Mairie.

Details here: nothing has changed.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F295

[idun]

Nationality, well, what can I say, when I hear the news reporters say that a suicide bomber is say british or french, I know they are not. Their values do not match anything in either society.

Nationality to me is my base values. I am fully aware of how things change and I change and people/generations change, but if I have some french values, then I am basically still very english, not scottish or welsh or irish, I have friends who are the aforementioned.

As Chancer said, never say never, and who knows what I could  do in the future. As I have said, I could end up back in France, not that I EVER EVER wanted to be in France for my dotage, but it could happen, and I could end up taking french nationality, because sometimes life happens and circumstances change. But even if I did, I would never be french other than officially ............ and I hope it would never come to that.

[YCCMB]

I don't know, Idun. They have a couple of other daughters who were, I think, born in the Netherlands. As far as I know, their son was born in France but his birth was registered with the Dutch authorities, and he had a Dutch passport, so as far as they were all concerned, with both parents being Dutch, he was too.

I don't think they ever considered otherwise till the flics turned up.

[idun]

As we did with ours, both births registered with the Paris Consulate, UK passports etc, so how did 'I' know that I had to let my kids  decide themselves when they got to the right age????

There was no way I was going to take them along and force them to be french earlier than at 18. And I was not going to 'not' tell them and do nothing, knowing that they would automatically become french. It was up to them, so I got all the paperwork ready and took them both along when it was 'time' and they decided.

Incidentally, they were absolutely horrible at the Tribunal d'Instance on the occasions we had to go there.

[lindal1000]

What happens if one of you is French and one is British? Are your kids automatically French? Does nationality make a difference in terms of parental rights? For example if the relationship ends would the non French parent have more difficulties with getting access rights?

My friend was born in UK to a British father and Italian mother. She's British and her mother was naturalized British but always very Italian. My friend has just obtained an Italian passport without too much difficulty.

Our Ukrainian friend in France is trying to get French citizenship. He is married to a French woman and has a daughter in France, and has met all the criteria as far as he knows, but they are dragging out the process. I have heard that the prefecture in the Lot et Garrone do their best to be obstructive, whereas in the Dordogne they are just unhelpful:)

[alittlebitfrench]

Lindal wrote ?

"What happens if one of you is French and one is British? Are your kids automatically French? Does nationality make a difference in terms of parental rights? "

The mother of my kids is French. The kids were born in France. Their nationality is French. They are customised to the French way of life. They think in French. Their behaviour is French. Everything is French about them accept their dad. I don't think being half British changes anything. They are French.

If they want duel nationality they can make that choice themselves were they are old enough.